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Brexit

Westministenders: I can't believe it's not butter

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 13/08/2017 09:43

Nigel Farage @ Nigel_Farage
Cannot believe we're seeing Nazi salutes in 21st century America.

Yeah, that's what we said on 16th June 2016, when some dickhead stood in front of a poster.

The thing is, what Farage says with faux surprise isn't unusual or isolated to him. It's widespread. It's perhaps the norm rather than the exception in many circles.

It's represents a total lack of self awareness. It represents the disconnect that what comes out of your mouth tends to have an effect on the people around you, whether intentioned that way or not when you talk about 'others' or 'not belonging'.

It's a direct effect of nationalism.

Patriotism seems to be something that people have totally lost the plot with and don't understand. It's used as a defence for nationalism. It is the last defence of the scoundrel. Patriotism and being pro-EU or not being a racist dick are not mutually exclusive, though you'd be forgiven for thinking differently these days.

I think a lot of people will sit and go, "Look at America, that is awful. I'm glad we are not like that".

Except we are far more than we realise. Grenfell says much about that.

There's an phrase and Southern Wolves and Northern Wolves when it comes to racism in America. The UK is like the Northern Wolf. Sly and silver tongued to justify and hide racism because 'Look they are worse than us. We are the good guys'.

A bit like saying, you talked to an EU citizen and they were just as racist as me, so Brexit is ok.

It's the twisted desperation to justify the othering rather than take responsibility for enabling and emboldening racism. Then dressing it up as some legitimate political cause which actually you have zero understanding or comprehension of the consequences of.

Brexit has some deep roots in Nazi type fantasies. You can not separate the idea that Britain is superior and Brits are better than Europeans from too much Brexit logic. The Empire was not a pretty thing for much of the world. It's worrying.

Not to mention we've had a right wing attack on a group of people outside a mosque in this fashion before the US had that attack yesterday.

Let's not think that because we haven't had blokes with tiki torches providing a photographic opportunity and theatre for the TV producer that we are somehow 'better'. Or not as bad as America.

The only real difference between them and us is the brash openness about it and the fact they have a bunch of guns.

This was predictable. Indeed I expected and I expect more. There will be more and it will get far, far worse in the US. Yesterday was just the start. Trump wants it. He will fuel it. He will capitalise from it. Yes your mate Donald loves a bit of bigotry, Nig.

There no guarantees it won't happen here for various reasons. It just is characterised in a slightly different way because we are British and don't really do brash in anything as it's not our way.

It's too easy for Farage. Or Johnson. Or May. Or whoever to just walk away and innocently say they are shocked and bear no responsibility because they don't wave Nazi flags about.

You don't have to do that, to share the same values or believe the same thing. Salutes and flags are just branding. A repackaged version for the 21st century is even more dangerous.

We won't forget who Farage hangs out with or courts for publicity and attention. Farage only says and does what he thinks he can get away with. That's part of the ugly truth.

We still have not even started to confront the relationship between racism and Brexit. Indeed, much seems to be happening to suggest that after blaming EU, that there are a Brexit opportunities for scapegoating opening up.

For me yesterday was depressing not because it happened, but because we saw it coming and because our country is in denial about being the same.

Farage is the very personification of it.

OP posts:
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19
IrenetheQuaint · 13/08/2017 14:25

Ugh. The thread title reminds me of a university acquaintance who referred to I Can't Believe It's Not Butter as 'Fuck me, it's marge' - a bluntness we would do well to emulate.

SwedishEdith · 13/08/2017 14:30

Thanks for new thread.

ElenaGreco123 · 13/08/2017 14:32

Once I read about it, I knew there was no way I could watch Eden Paradise Lost. The Handmaid's Tale has already made me so angry. But for some weird reason I am reading The Power on holiday [sigh].

YoungChowFriedRice · 13/08/2017 14:55

Thanks for new thread.

PattyPenguin · 13/08/2017 15:24

So apparently the idea is that the UK will not be in the customs union during transition.

www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/aug/13/hammond-and-fox-brexit-transition-would-not-be-way-to-remain

Some snippets:
"Britain will not remain in the customs union during the transitional period planned for immediately after it leaves the European Union, two leading cabinet ministers declared on Sunday.

...
..the UK will be “outside the customs union” during the transition and that it “will be a ‘third country’ not party to the EU treaties”

...
"In their article Fox and Hammond ... They go on: “We are also clear that during this period our borders must continue to operate smoothly; goods bought on the internet must still cross borders; businesses must still be able to supply their customers across the EU and our innovative, world-leading companies must be able to hire the talent they need, including from within the EU.”

The article does not explain how these aims will be achieved."

Words 'kin fail me.

BiglyBadgers · 13/08/2017 15:35

On the subject of racists not recognising themselves as racist, here is some quotes from a white nationalist marcher who was photographed in Charlottesville. It is an amazing example of 'I'm not racist, but...' mentality.

UNR Student Marches in Charlottesville White Nationalist Rally
www.ktvn.com/story/36123640/unr-student-marches-in-charlottesville-white-nationalist-rally

PattyPenguin · 13/08/2017 15:37

On a lighter note...

Unileve has changed the name of the spread to "I Can't Believe It Tastes So Good".

The official line is "..because it wants customers to realise its multi-use potential". Totally unlike butter, then, as butter is so-o-o-o, you know, just a one use thing.

It's far more likely to be because nobody on the face of the earth was ever astonished to find that it was, in fact, marge.

SapphireStrange · 13/08/2017 15:47

Thanks as always, Red.

lalalonglegs · 13/08/2017 16:38

Patty - I'm glad it's not just me that can't see how this transitional arrangement is going to work (or be in any way different from crashing out of the EU). It was nice waking up to the news that PH and LF had agreed that a transitional deal would be best for the country and then, a few hours later, it is revealed to be completely meaningless Sad.

The thing that worries me about any talk of transitional deals, no matter how sensible, is that they have to be agreed by the EU, possibly voted through unanimously by the other 27 countries so it seems a completely unrealistic to present them as a fait accompli anyway.

Artisanjam · 13/08/2017 16:57

Thank you hit the new thread. In other cheery news, the Sunday Times reported that Jacob Rees Mogg was one of the preferred candidates for conservative leader amongst members of the party. &just when I thought it couldn't get much more depressing...

SwedishEdith · 13/08/2017 17:05

Jonathan Lis‏ @jonlis1

If you were hoping after 5 months of A50 & desperate Brexit headlines, Govt wd finally know what it was doing, Telegraph has some bad news.

Here's the scoop that shows Govt knows what it's doing in Ireland. A Schengen area. Brilliant! Now the bad news: it's absolute nonsense.

Irish border issue not about people. If Ireland stays outside Schengen it's quite possible to retain Common Travel Area. This is not news.

A Schengen area, however, does nothing to resolve issue of customs checks which are necessary result of leaving customs union.

So if Government genuinely believes this solves the issue, it shows they don't actually understand it. It takes us absolutely nowhere.

Next, Fox/Hammond. We'll leave customs union to get FTAs as 'open' nation (despite closing open border with Ireland & building EU barriers)

And why leave single market? Bc there was 'a vote for change'. That's it. Change. No vote to smash ppl's jobs, one suspects, but we move on.

Fox/Hammond then discuss avoiding cliff edge: v sensible. So we'll have a 'time-limited interim period': great. CU & SM then? Think again.

During transition, UK outside SM, CU & treaties, but seems everything will look the same. Aka a unicorn cake transition. Can't have or eat.

It's just another variation of cherry-picking what we like. How can we get this smooth transition while outside EU's structures? We can't.

It would require bespoke deal to be negotiated just for transition. Afterwards you'd basically have to start negotiating Brexit from scratch

Whole point of transition is to ease the Brexit process, not to repeat it.

If you leave SM and CU, you're totally outside unless you have comprehensive replacement deal. In other words, back to 2016 and square one.

What Fox & Hammond are really advocating here is a cliff-edge. Either they're being disingenuous or ignorant. But clock won't wait for them.

PattyPenguin · 13/08/2017 17:12

lala I believe only "deep and comprehensive trade deals" need ratification by all 27 member states (and possibly regional assemblies). The European Commission can agree and implement bilateral trade agreements.

It looks as if Hammond & Fox are pinning their hopes on bilateral trade deals. Given that these can take anything from 3 years up to conclude, what the hell will happen between exiting the customs union and implementing any such deals?

woman12345 · 13/08/2017 17:13

Swedish from the DT : "As part of the proposals the Telegraph understands that the prime minister is to offer free movement to Irish citizens into and out of the UK after it leaves the EU. The establishment of a "Schengen area" between the two countries will be a key plank of a deal the Government hopes will help solve the issue of the Irish border post Brexit"

A key plank of a deal.

PattyPenguin · 13/08/2017 17:19

Why are they calling it a "Schengen area"? The Schengen Agreement only applies to EU member states, if they agree to it, and neither the UK nor Ireland did.

Why can't they use the term "Common Travel Area" (which included the Isle of Man and the Channel Islands as well as the UK and Ireland)?

Because it wasn't established by treaty or legally binding agreement? Because people are more familiar with the term "Schengen"? Because they're forgotten it existed before EU membership?

SwedishEdith · 13/08/2017 17:20

We've always had that woman.

woman12345 · 13/08/2017 17:26

Is Teresa planning a great British Plank Union with Ireland? With adolph mogg as our noble and fecund leader. Did she remember to ask Ireland?

lalalonglegs · 13/08/2017 17:31

Patty - I'm not sure that is the case. I always understood that a transitional deal was at the discretion of the EU which, depending on how much the UK had pissed them off could be tricky enough, but Fintan O'Toole - the Irish Times writer - pointed out a week or two ago that it needs the agreement of every EU national government.

But – from an Irish perspective – this [the UK seeking a transitional agreement] changes everything. Under article 50, it is indeed possible for the member state that is exiting to seek to extend the remit of the EU treaties beyond the stipulated two years.

This is what a transitional period would have to mean.

But – and here’s the rub – this can be done only with the unanimous consent of every other member state. In other words, Ireland has a veto.

BiglyBadgers · 13/08/2017 17:33

I don't understand this interim arrangement at all. Is it the case they are suggesting we leave the customs union, but keep everything else? How could that not have a negative impact on trade and the economy if we still have to get everything through customs? Or are they suggesting we would be keeping all the advantages of free trade and movement but while being able to make other deals with other countries? Why would the EU be OK with that?

I am coming to the conclusion that it is probably best to just ignore anything that comes out of Westminster regarding brexit until someone sane from the EU27 has confirmed it. Confused

PattyPenguin · 13/08/2017 17:42

lala my worry is that I cannot see any mention a transitional arrangement post March 2019.

The story quotes Hammond & Fox as saying we will leave the customs union and the single market that month, and "When we’ve left the customs union, we will build up on [relationships with other countries] by negotiating as an independent nation with the freedom to sign bilateral free trade agreements.”

Those bilateral agreements could include one with the EU, as well as other blocs or individual countries, but the negotiations would only start after March 2019.

As I say, I see no mention of what the UK's situation will be between leaving the single market and customs union in March 2019 and whatever date any putative agreements are implemented.

BigChocFrenzy · 13/08/2017 17:47

Thanks, red

The EU proposal for transition is that the 4 pillars remain, so that their rules aren't broken and so that UK trade continues as before
i.e. FOM, ECJ, budget payments continue

BUT
the UK would lose most - if not all - voting rights:
at least the right to send MEPs and the right for the UK to participate in decisions about what the EU does after the transition period

In return for losing these voting rights, the Uk budget payments might be written off against the final exit bill

Any other proposal for transition would be like trying to negotiate a new deal,
i.e. would take longer than to 31 March 2019

  • hence rather pointless -
and could also be vetoed by anybody.

In fact, the E27 heads of govt, who give Barnier his negotiating remit and boundaries, would almost certainly never allow this
So it would never come to a vote.

lalalonglegs · 13/08/2017 17:48

I completely agree, it doesn't appear to be a transitional deal at all - or not one that is of any use or value. It seems to be a statement purporting to show some kind of meaningless unity. My point about transitional deals was that they have to be agreed by the opposite side so whatever the UK wants is not a done deal until the EU (or possibly the other member states) signs off on it so it seems presumptuous to announce anything - even something as nonsensical as this.

BigChocFrenzy · 13/08/2017 17:53

So far, only Canada has said it would do a "grandfathering" or cut and paste deal with the UK of CETA, the Canada-EU trade deal.

Negotiating FTAs between countries / trade blocs usually take 5-12 years
Unless the UK rolls over and just agrees to whatever the USA, India, China etc want
That's hardly "taking back control" though

We already know that India and China want a lot more visas for the UK.
That won't be popular with those who want Brexit to reduce immigration, whether to help UK workers get more pay, or because - like Farage - they don't like to hear furrin spoken on buses.

LurkingHusband · 13/08/2017 18:57

With the usual acceptance of TAATs being frowned upon. I was fascinated to read this thread this morning

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/3004799-How-can-we-save-Wilko

And then return to it this evening to find not one person has suggested in response to the OP "Stop Brexit".

(Although, my view is that would simply be postponing the inevitable. The shape of the world is changing, and will never change back ...)

PattyPenguin · 13/08/2017 19:16

Some woman called Anne McElvoy, described as a conservative (small c) journalist by Wikipedia, in the Observer today.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/aug/12/remainers-will-get-nowhere-by-continuing-to-shout-i-told-you-so

Anne, dear, if something is a fucking stupid idea, I will call it a fucking stupid idea. I will not subscribe to the Emperor's New Clothes line. If that means, by inference, that people believe I am calling them stupid for voting for a fucking stupid idea, then so be it.

Sorry for the language, but some people just get me all sweary.

Now, back to stitching my enormous banners reading "WTF did you think would happen?", "It was a stupid idea" and "Ye gods, we are all so screwed".

thecatfromjapan · 13/08/2017 19:56

Lurking Husband I was so tempted to write "stop Brexit" on that thread!!! Grin

I find the 'fragility' of Leavers, or the supposed fragility, very annoying. The entire campaign had a whole "You mustn't call them stupid", "You mustn't call us stupid - it's because people imply we're stupid that we're going to vote Leave, nyer, nyer" discourse runing through it - it was utterly, utterly bewildering. And remains so.

It still feels as though the entire Referendum was a kind of mass madness/hysteria, and the slow, continuing car-crash of Brexit has a kind of madness hanging over it. Sad

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