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Brexit

Westministenders: I can't believe it's not butter

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 13/08/2017 09:43

Nigel Farage @ Nigel_Farage
Cannot believe we're seeing Nazi salutes in 21st century America.

Yeah, that's what we said on 16th June 2016, when some dickhead stood in front of a poster.

The thing is, what Farage says with faux surprise isn't unusual or isolated to him. It's widespread. It's perhaps the norm rather than the exception in many circles.

It's represents a total lack of self awareness. It represents the disconnect that what comes out of your mouth tends to have an effect on the people around you, whether intentioned that way or not when you talk about 'others' or 'not belonging'.

It's a direct effect of nationalism.

Patriotism seems to be something that people have totally lost the plot with and don't understand. It's used as a defence for nationalism. It is the last defence of the scoundrel. Patriotism and being pro-EU or not being a racist dick are not mutually exclusive, though you'd be forgiven for thinking differently these days.

I think a lot of people will sit and go, "Look at America, that is awful. I'm glad we are not like that".

Except we are far more than we realise. Grenfell says much about that.

There's an phrase and Southern Wolves and Northern Wolves when it comes to racism in America. The UK is like the Northern Wolf. Sly and silver tongued to justify and hide racism because 'Look they are worse than us. We are the good guys'.

A bit like saying, you talked to an EU citizen and they were just as racist as me, so Brexit is ok.

It's the twisted desperation to justify the othering rather than take responsibility for enabling and emboldening racism. Then dressing it up as some legitimate political cause which actually you have zero understanding or comprehension of the consequences of.

Brexit has some deep roots in Nazi type fantasies. You can not separate the idea that Britain is superior and Brits are better than Europeans from too much Brexit logic. The Empire was not a pretty thing for much of the world. It's worrying.

Not to mention we've had a right wing attack on a group of people outside a mosque in this fashion before the US had that attack yesterday.

Let's not think that because we haven't had blokes with tiki torches providing a photographic opportunity and theatre for the TV producer that we are somehow 'better'. Or not as bad as America.

The only real difference between them and us is the brash openness about it and the fact they have a bunch of guns.

This was predictable. Indeed I expected and I expect more. There will be more and it will get far, far worse in the US. Yesterday was just the start. Trump wants it. He will fuel it. He will capitalise from it. Yes your mate Donald loves a bit of bigotry, Nig.

There no guarantees it won't happen here for various reasons. It just is characterised in a slightly different way because we are British and don't really do brash in anything as it's not our way.

It's too easy for Farage. Or Johnson. Or May. Or whoever to just walk away and innocently say they are shocked and bear no responsibility because they don't wave Nazi flags about.

You don't have to do that, to share the same values or believe the same thing. Salutes and flags are just branding. A repackaged version for the 21st century is even more dangerous.

We won't forget who Farage hangs out with or courts for publicity and attention. Farage only says and does what he thinks he can get away with. That's part of the ugly truth.

We still have not even started to confront the relationship between racism and Brexit. Indeed, much seems to be happening to suggest that after blaming EU, that there are a Brexit opportunities for scapegoating opening up.

For me yesterday was depressing not because it happened, but because we saw it coming and because our country is in denial about being the same.

Farage is the very personification of it.

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Cailleach1 · 25/08/2017 23:42

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/theresa-may-told-to-apologise-to-parliament-over-overseas-students-yvette-cooper-osborne_uk_59a0381ae4b06d67e337335a

Strong words. Knowingly deceived.

"Cobra beer founder and independent peer Lord Bilimoria said the government had “knowingly deceived” the country and called for an inquiry into both Number"

Cailleach1 · 25/08/2017 23:53

Don't know why, Peregrina.

However, she was intransigent about not doing anything to get a better idea of the real number.

“But repeated attempts by the Treasury, Foreign Office and Business department to get the Home Office to investigate the accuracy of the numbers were rebuffed — the then Home Secretary thought it was better to stick with false information than get the real facts, which might force her to change the policy.”

www.holyrood.com/articles/news/george-osborne-attacks-theresa-may-over-foreign-students-numbers

woman12345 · 26/08/2017 06:51

Theresa May’s husband is a senior executive at a $1.4tn investment fund that profits from tax avoiding companies

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/theresa-may-philip-may-amazon-starbucks-google-capital-group-philip-morris-a7133231.html

Too obvious?

In homage to Siskind, this week to 26.8.17 has included:

1 Police investigation into illegal election practices employed by tories in Wales;

2 Confirmation that wildly inaccurate statistics on student immigration were 'knowingly used' used to persuade electorate;

3 Disappearance, deleted SM accounts, posts and MSM silence from a 'remain campaigning' PR/journalist and father to two young children after series of disturbing messages;

4 Confirmation that thousands of EU nationals have left britain after threats of deportation and detention.

5 PM gave a muted criticism of 45's succour to Nazis following a terrorist killing of protestor.

Anything else?

woman12345 · 26/08/2017 07:11

European Commission president Jean-Claude Juncker has arranged to meet his “good friend” Tony Blair in Brussels this week while Brexit negotiations between Britain and the EU take place across the road.

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-tony-blair-jean-claude-juncker-meeting-talks-brussels-latest-good-friend-a7912461.html

Blair's perceived toxicity could be useful.

HashiAsLarry · 26/08/2017 07:37

I have seen some of the best responses to the figures that eu nationals are leaving including a gem that it's rubbish because trains at rush hour are still packed and there are still homeless people. Any suggestion that it may be caused by chronic under investment is to say 'we're broke' and to refuse to believe forriners do anything but sponge. Its all about feelz. A clever government would recognise this and could come up with an arrangement that felt like brexit without damaging ourselves completely. But this government is nowhere near clever or Valerie as my phone is for some reason insisting I mean

whatwouldrondo · 26/08/2017 08:33

Olenna As we have discussed on many occasions, since this seems a particular issue for you, the existence of what were essentially bogus educational establishments that overseas students could pay to sign up to and then not even have to turn up was a blip of the Tories own making, the side effect of imposing their free market dogma on the education sector without thinking it through. It was wrong on so many levels including all the students UK and otherwise who paid money to these snake oil salesmen thinking they were going to get a worthwhile qualification (and whilst tightened up this still goes on where they can get away with it). Exactly how many students were involved in this transient phenomenon though?

Meanwhile for hundreds of years our education sector has been a vehicle of soft power for the UK with many millions of students passing through our universities and other educational institutions and either contributing to our economy by enabling employers to recruit the brightest and the best or favouring our interests in their home country. Behind that is the fact that those students have worked hard to gain admission and pay for an education in any of the UKs most reputable educational institutions.

Yet Theresa May was so obsessed with restricting immigration that she oversaw a regime which could sanction a van turning up at International House in London which provides accommodation and social facilities to students at some of the UK and the world's most prestigious universities, eg UCL, Imperial, KCL, on a cinema night, look through all the overseas students papers and then detain the students unlucky enough to have sat a particular language test. Some of those students were kept in detention centres with horrendous reputations. like Yardley, before being deported. Their only crime was to have worked hard and paid the fees to get to those universities. As a direct result of the 48000 students treated in that way the number of students coming here from India has halfed and the Australian media are actively welcoming what is our loss and their gain in terms of overseas students, plus a chance to revel in the hubris.

You think that is justified? As my mum taught me two wrongs definitely do not make a right......

woman12345 · 26/08/2017 08:54

whatwouldrondo that anecdote about student detention in Yardley, have you seen it reported in MSM? Thanks for posting it.

BiglyBadgers · 26/08/2017 09:00

I'm getting worried about James Chapman. Do we need to start some sort of international hunt for him? Confused

woman12345 · 26/08/2017 09:00

Could only find Ian Dunt in his blog reporting it:

Arrested, humiliated, detained: How Britain treats foreign students

www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2016/01/26/arrested-humiliated-detained-how-britain-treats-foreign-stud

www.telegraph.co.uk/women/womens-politics/11859016/Why-is-Britain-locking-up-32000-immigrants-a-year.html

Just imagine if a British citizen was arrested and kept in jail for that amount of time without a trial or any idea of when they’d be let out. It would be considered an absolute abomination of human rights – but that’s exactly what is happening to immigrants coming to the UK

DT 2 years ago ^

woman12345 · 26/08/2017 09:02

Me too, Bigly.

woman12345 · 26/08/2017 09:08

Is Amnesty International discredited?
For so many of the concerns we are talking about, they used to be the 'go to' organisation for those incarcerated for their non violent views/status.

BiglyBadgers · 26/08/2017 09:08

There is lots of twitter speculation of a super injunction, but you would think there could at least be some reporting that he is alive and hasn't been killed in a freak hippopotamus accident while on holiday. It is just so noticeable that he has suddenly gone silent and nobody is saying anything, even the Guido Fawkes piece on his alleged arrest in Greece has been removed. It is a bit scary.

Do you think we could do some sort of Mumsnet crowd sourcing and see if someone somewhere could find something out?

prettybird · 26/08/2017 09:26

To follow up Ron's "anecdote" (iirc she witnessed it and was involved in supporting some of those involved), here's an article which points out that up to 48,000 students could return to the UK but why would they want to after their deportation was found to be illegal. The Home Secretary's evidence was found to have "multiple frailties and shortcomings" ie it was a total overreaction which suited her preconceptions and prejudices Hmm

http://www.independent.co.uk/student/news/theresa-may-wrongly-deported-48000-students-after-bbc-panorama-exposes-toeic-scam-a6958286.html

And this is the woman who now leads the UK Angry

whatwouldrondo · 26/08/2017 09:35

woman It did get reported in a wider sense in the MSM eg www.ft.com/content/cd80f364-f108-11e5-aff5-19b4e253664a I know about the International House incident specifically because a call went out that night to alumnae for any Lawyers etc. that could help, and then there was follow up coverage of the issue. The alumnae page fills with overseas students seeking support, it used to be non EU students but now EU students are having issues as well eg they are now being asked for proof of health insurance. Overseas students generally are feeling harassed and insecure, failing just one module leaves you open to deportation, and on some courses, especially STEM subjects, pretty much every student at unis like UCL and Imperial can expect to have to retake a module at some stage........ It is stressful enough without fearing that you will have to leave.

The crucial thing is that this gets reported in the overseas press too. The reduction in the numbers of Indian students was a direct result of coverage in the Indian press of the Language test debacle, and the thousands of students there who were seeking redress for the fees they had paid and the distress experienced.

whatwouldrondo · 26/08/2017 09:45

pretty I am afraid I would have not been a great deal of use that night so I only witnessed it happening online.

woman12345 · 26/08/2017 09:46

Bigly sadly, I think the silence is for a reason. Even Louise Mensch has deleted posts about it.

The crucial thing is that this gets reported in the overseas press too
Good. Thanks again, whatwouldrondo . Surely the NUS should be campaigning on this too.

whatwouldrondo · 26/08/2017 09:52

The FT article has gone beyond the paywall and for some reason it won't copy and paste either but it reports the solicitor for one of the students in the test case saying that he had been contacted by hundreds of students who had either been deported or spent months in detention centres.

woman12345 · 26/08/2017 09:53

prettybird thanks, that is Shock too.

whatwouldrondo · 26/08/2017 10:08

NUS campaigns www.nusconnect.org.uk/sections/international

lalalonglegs · 26/08/2017 10:15

My friend emailed me earlier this week to say that she and her husband had bumped into James Chapman on their Greek island and her husband had gone over and ended up having a long chat with him. He said that he was dialling it down because his wife was finding it hard to deal with the barrage of attention but that doesn't really tally with his accounts and other people's tweets being deleted. My friend didn't specify which day this happened so I don't know if it was before or after Chapman's alleged arrest.

It is all extremely odd and potentially quite sinister.

missmoon · 26/08/2017 10:25

The story I heard from (usually well informed) Tory friends is that he has had a mental health breakdown, and is being treated. But that doesn't fit the deleted tweets, deleted stories by Guido Fawkes, and the media silence.

whatwouldrondo · 26/08/2017 10:29

This is the paperwork now being required of EU students

"If your country has public health insurance that should do. I asked for a statement from the national insurer back home and then had it officially translated." Because the Home Office could not possibly have on record the public health insurance arrangements of the other 27 countries? It has to demand from each one of the thousands of students? More deterrent bureaucracy........

BiglyBadgers · 26/08/2017 10:52

The story I heard from (usually well informed) Tory friends is that he has had a mental health breakdown, and is being treated

There were quite a lot of Tories on Twitter trying to convince everyone he was suffering a breakdown. Lots of faux sympathy comments. It was pretty stinky and I was a bit disgusted with them.

I also don't see how that would fit with a complete radio blackout. If someone had a mental breakdown you would at least expect a 'he is spending more time with his family and we would ask for privacy at this time' sort of thing. The complete silence with even well known stirrers like Mensch going silent suggests some serious legal intervention in regard to reporting. I don't think you would have that for illness.

prettybird · 26/08/2017 10:53

It's like in South Africa under apartheid during the period that they would "ban" people Hmm. Only at least that was out in the open, whereas now we appear to live in a police state a country where those with power and influence hide behind Super Injunctions Angry