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Brexit

Westministenders: I can't believe it's not butter

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 13/08/2017 09:43

Nigel Farage @ Nigel_Farage
Cannot believe we're seeing Nazi salutes in 21st century America.

Yeah, that's what we said on 16th June 2016, when some dickhead stood in front of a poster.

The thing is, what Farage says with faux surprise isn't unusual or isolated to him. It's widespread. It's perhaps the norm rather than the exception in many circles.

It's represents a total lack of self awareness. It represents the disconnect that what comes out of your mouth tends to have an effect on the people around you, whether intentioned that way or not when you talk about 'others' or 'not belonging'.

It's a direct effect of nationalism.

Patriotism seems to be something that people have totally lost the plot with and don't understand. It's used as a defence for nationalism. It is the last defence of the scoundrel. Patriotism and being pro-EU or not being a racist dick are not mutually exclusive, though you'd be forgiven for thinking differently these days.

I think a lot of people will sit and go, "Look at America, that is awful. I'm glad we are not like that".

Except we are far more than we realise. Grenfell says much about that.

There's an phrase and Southern Wolves and Northern Wolves when it comes to racism in America. The UK is like the Northern Wolf. Sly and silver tongued to justify and hide racism because 'Look they are worse than us. We are the good guys'.

A bit like saying, you talked to an EU citizen and they were just as racist as me, so Brexit is ok.

It's the twisted desperation to justify the othering rather than take responsibility for enabling and emboldening racism. Then dressing it up as some legitimate political cause which actually you have zero understanding or comprehension of the consequences of.

Brexit has some deep roots in Nazi type fantasies. You can not separate the idea that Britain is superior and Brits are better than Europeans from too much Brexit logic. The Empire was not a pretty thing for much of the world. It's worrying.

Not to mention we've had a right wing attack on a group of people outside a mosque in this fashion before the US had that attack yesterday.

Let's not think that because we haven't had blokes with tiki torches providing a photographic opportunity and theatre for the TV producer that we are somehow 'better'. Or not as bad as America.

The only real difference between them and us is the brash openness about it and the fact they have a bunch of guns.

This was predictable. Indeed I expected and I expect more. There will be more and it will get far, far worse in the US. Yesterday was just the start. Trump wants it. He will fuel it. He will capitalise from it. Yes your mate Donald loves a bit of bigotry, Nig.

There no guarantees it won't happen here for various reasons. It just is characterised in a slightly different way because we are British and don't really do brash in anything as it's not our way.

It's too easy for Farage. Or Johnson. Or May. Or whoever to just walk away and innocently say they are shocked and bear no responsibility because they don't wave Nazi flags about.

You don't have to do that, to share the same values or believe the same thing. Salutes and flags are just branding. A repackaged version for the 21st century is even more dangerous.

We won't forget who Farage hangs out with or courts for publicity and attention. Farage only says and does what he thinks he can get away with. That's part of the ugly truth.

We still have not even started to confront the relationship between racism and Brexit. Indeed, much seems to be happening to suggest that after blaming EU, that there are a Brexit opportunities for scapegoating opening up.

For me yesterday was depressing not because it happened, but because we saw it coming and because our country is in denial about being the same.

Farage is the very personification of it.

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LurkingHusband · 24/08/2017 10:51

To clarify the above point. We already know that EU citizens are leaving and this is bad. The Brits leaving also potentially represents a further brain drain going on.

And yet in another thread people are dreaming of a commutingless future ...

Mistigri · 24/08/2017 11:06

Jonathan Portes predicted this decline in immigration ages ago. This was the basis of my opinion (which I continue to hold) that as immigration falls, the pressure to support the referendum outcome will diminish leaving the door open to some sort of fudge which will be remain-in-all-but-name (that's assuming brexit happens at all).

My prediction now is that negotiations are likely to be suspended in due course due to Davis's posturing over the financial settlement. Pound will collapse to parity with Euro, markets and business leaders will take fright. But I think this is a necessary step to bringing what Richard North calls the "ultras" to heel and allowing either a sensible brexit (EEA) or no brexit.

Cailleach1 · 24/08/2017 11:14

www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/pound-euro-exchange-rate-latest-holiday-airport-currency-bureau-travel-eu-airport-currency-europe-a7909596.html

"Travellers obtaining last-minute holiday cash from Southampton Airport’s Moneycorp branch on Thursday, however, were getting just 87 cents for every pound – the worst rate since the financial crisis."

Just a force of nature. No rhyme or reason for it. Maybe the pound will suddenly be worth 2 Euros tomorrow. It just fluctuates willy nilly dontcha know. Brexiteers on telly have told us all about this. Especially that Brexit is not the particular reason.

Cailleach1 · 24/08/2017 11:16

Here is from one of the genuises aka Lord Haw Haw .
www.express.co.uk/showbiz/tv-radio/820395/Nigel-Farage-Labour-Remainer-Heidi-Alexande-Brexit-Good-Morning-Britain-ITV

"When Alexander suggested that the country was poorer since the referendum outcome, Farage pointed out that the Pound had been falling since 2010 and it was “just a continuation of that trend”."

Mind you, that particular honest genius said that under WHO rules, the UK could treat the EU differently from other traders. Even when not in a trade deal with them. And that was bollcks. I'd certainly take the view he was not being a propagandist lying bastrd deliberately dishonest. It was just an honest mistake.

Cailleach1 · 24/08/2017 11:16

Posted those last two posts in litter tray by mistake. Oh dear.

LurkingHusband · 24/08/2017 11:34

and I now see the middle-aged are being advised to walk faster, to help make Brexit a success.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-41030630

woman12345 · 24/08/2017 11:40

advised to walk faster peoplesmarch4eu.org will be splendid opportunity to do so then Smile Lots more on the way.
Cailleach1 feline consciousness raising can do no harm. Grin

SwedishEdith · 24/08/2017 12:02

If anyone loves reading about Russian shills on Twitter and Carol Cadwalladr's reports, follow this thread. Fascinating.

Conspirador Norteño‏ @conspirator0

David Jones' Locker: Where Truth Goes to Die #TrumpRussia and a

prettybird · 24/08/2017 12:03

As the pound continues its downward trajectory and approaches parity with the euro and beyond Sad, the UK is now the worst performing economy in the G7, with a growth rate half that of the Eurozone Hmm

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/uk-economy-growth-q2-2017-half-eurozone-eu-europe-second-quarter-a7909706.html

"But it's all going to be worth it in the end" Angry

woman12345 · 24/08/2017 12:11

Still no news on chappers. I can't remember something like this happening in britain before. A hoax would have made a big news story.

LittlePickleHead · 24/08/2017 12:57

I haven't read the whole thread but looking into the Chappers thing is really disturbing.

Has he really been assaulted by Greek police at the behest of UK government? Is there a superinjunction against him?

He really must know some dark secrets if any of this is true. No wonder no politicians want to come out and say this is all a terrible idea, even if that's what they think.

MyRedPepper · 24/08/2017 12:59

I agree with you misti
If the pound sinks low enough and this creates an economic crisis big enough for markets and investors to start shouting really loudly, then we might have a chance.

I am more and more appalled with the British stance of victims/sharing if information etc... which all points out to a total lack of interest about human rights and protecting people (esp the weakest i.e. The immigrants, disabled etc etc).

SwedishEdith · 24/08/2017 13:05

I think a super injunction is the only explanation for the weird complete silence.

woman12345 · 24/08/2017 13:12

I wonder if the 'people's march for the eu' march will be allowed to take place:

I was detained for protesting against Donald Trump. Here’s what the US Secret Service asked me

In the end, I couldn’t stop wondering why they were devoting so much time to a non-violent protestor with a banner when they could be pursuing neo-Nazis

NYPD: “Why would you come to the President’s home to do this?”

Me: “It was wrong for the President to support white supremacy.”

NYPD: “Don’t you respect the President?”

Me: “I don’t respect people who align with Nazis.”

Secret Service: “Do you have negative feelings toward the President?”

Me: “Yes.”

Secret Service: “Can you elaborate?”

Me: “He should be impeached and should not be president.”

Secret Service: “Do you have any mental health disorders?”

Me: “No.”

Secret Service: “Have you ever tried to commit suicide?”

Me: “No.”

Secret Service: “Have you ever had suicidal thoughts?”

Me: “No.”

www.independent.co.uk/voices/donald-trump-protest-detained-secret-service-questions-dissent-us-america-a7908746.html

NYPD script is not dissimilar to those employed by PIPs interviewers, or the shriller of shills we've observed. Hmm

howabout · 24/08/2017 13:27

Hi Red been a while since I flicked through a set of banking FS so here is the EIB's for 2016.

www.eib.org/attachments/general/reports/fr2016en.pdf

The UK contributes 16.11% of paid in capital EUR 3.5 bn (retained profits bring its share to the EUR 10 bn quoted in the article) and uncalled capital of EUR 35.7 bn. In return UK projects typically receive about 9% of loans, the EUR 6.9 bn quoted, per year. Total UK loans outstanding were EUR 37 bn being 8% of the EUR 455 bn total.

The implication from current figures is that the UK is investing overseas via the EIB. If the capital were repatriated and invested in the same way in the UK then there would be the current EUR 6.9 bn plus almost as much again available to invest in UK infrastructure.

Not convinced the UK is getting a "good deal" from this arrangement.

There are quite a few instances of EU bodies disinvesting / failing to maintain investment in the UK post Brexit. This doesn't bode well in terms of them wanting to keep us were we to change our mind imho.

LurkingHusband · 24/08/2017 13:30

I think a super injunction is the only explanation for the weird complete silence.

Only in the UK. There are 273 other countries ....

PattyPenguin · 24/08/2017 13:53

If the capital were repatriated and invested in the same way in the UK then there would be the current EUR 6.9bn plus almost as much again available to invest in UK infrastructure.

"Invested in the same way." Hm. Odds on that happening?

LurkingHusband · 24/08/2017 15:32

www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/brexit-latest-news-uk-eu-talks-negative-impact-limit-angela-merkel-chief-staff-peter-altmaier-a7909601.html

Brexit: UK faces 'severe loss' from leaving EU, warns Angela Merkel's chief of staff
Peter Altmaier has been described as ‘the most powerful man in Berlin’

Angela Merkel’s powerful chief of staff, Peter Altmaier, has warned that Brexit will be a “severe loss” for Britain and stressed that the best the UK can hope for from the negotiations with the European Union is to “limit the negative impact” of departure.

Speaking to the Lindau Nobel Laureates meeting in Germany, Mr Altmaier emphasised his personal affection for the UK and even said he would have chosen Britain to claim asylum if he had to.

But he also pointed to the apparent chaos on the British side since the general election failed to deliver a majority for the Conservatives.

“When we see the preparations for the Brexit talks in Brussels and we see how difficult it is for our friends in the UK to establish their national interest and their national negotiation papers then we can see this will mean a severe loss, not only for the UK but also for the EU,” he said.

Mr Altmaier, who has been Ms Merkel’s trusted chief of staff since 2013 and has been described as “the most powerful man in Berlin’’ by The Economist, divulged that some British ministers had been privately describing Brexit as a possible “win-win” for the UK and the EU.

“When one of my colleagues from the British government went to Berlin in January and told me ‘Peter, let’s try to make a win-win situation out of this mess’ I said ‘yes, but can you imagine when you have a couple, man and wife, and two children, the house, the boat, the car, they are married for 30 years, and then they are going to divorce? Can you imagine how to make a win-win situation out of that mess?’ It will be a win-win situation for the lawyers of course, but certainly not for the family concerned,” he said.

Making it clear that the challenge of Brexit was damage limitation he added: “We have to ensure good co-operation after Brexit in order to limit the negative impact as good as we can.”

Mr Altmaier warned that Britain was likely to end up as a relatively impotent rule-taker outside the EU if it wanted to enjoy the benefits of the single market.

“Of course there is life outside the European Union, look at Switzerland. But in Switzerland for many decades already [they are] transposing every economically important directive and regulation from Brussels into Swiss legislation in order to be… part of the single market… without any influence on the content of what is adopted in Brussels.”

Over the past week the UK government has been releasing position papers on various aspects of Brexit including the customs union, standards checks on goods exports and the legal regulatory framework.

But the EU side has stressed that it will not even discuss post-2019 arrangements until sufficient progress has been made on the settlement of outstanding liabilities, the rights of EU citizens in the UK and the Irish border.

BigChocFrenzy · 24/08/2017 16:44

I suspect Chapman may have had a breakdown of some sort, which is why he was spilling the beans, but may also be why he is incommunicado now,

whatwouldrondo · 24/08/2017 16:47

Speaking of inward investment the first manifestations of the Chinese government strategy to focus its businesses on the one belt one road infrastructure project and projects that will increase their market share in high tech and high end engineering (yup where pre Brexit Britain had one of its competitive advantages) are materialising.

It says everything that the attention this development has attracted is in terms of the UK property market with one of china's biggest corporations dropping out of buying Nine Elms Square and a possible dampening of the property market amidst a slowdown in the luxury end.
www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2017/08/22/wanda-drops-london-land-investment-amid-chinese-scrutiny-overseas/

What it actually means is that the Chinese government is "discouraging" what it defines as "irrational" investment in any projects that will not build their competitive advantage in those sectors (where the UK would currently have a competitive advantage when it sets sail to do all these buccannering global trade deals). So a telecomms project in Vanatu is favoured over property or hotel or sports club investment in London....

So how is the British government squaring up to defend market share in the face of the £900bn investment and associated focusing of the Chinese economy???? I somehow doubt it is even on their strategic radar.......

I posted this before but just as a reminder on OBOR "Obor continues a drive by Beijing to provide domestic companies — from high-speed rail manufacturers to telecoms companies — with experience to become global brands. “They think the next step is making Chinese companies globally competitive, learning management techniques and so on . . . Building up these champions as China wants to do is a big part of Obor,” www.ft.com/content/0714074a-0334-11e7-aa5b-6bb07f5c8e12

BigChocFrenzy · 24/08/2017 16:49

When the UK joined, it was about the 2nd poorest member.
The Regional Development funds and similar help for poorer regions were the brainchild of MrsT, swinging the concrete handbag to claw back UK contributions

The Uk is now the #2 or 3 eceonomy in the EU, so it's contributions subsidize poorer E27 members; no dispute about that.

I understand Leavers want to stop doing that - despite all the claims that e.g. Greece should be subsidized more.

However, I suspect that if UK contributions were completely stopped, there would be less money for housing and poorer regions than what the EU currently doles out

LurkingHusband · 24/08/2017 16:51

looks like some pages relating to Chapman - particularly the arrest - are no longer available ....

woman12345 · 24/08/2017 17:57

LH Mensch is onto it.

woman12345 · 24/08/2017 18:03

Which may or may not be a good thing ^ Some interesting posts on it on @acgrayling , though.
Curiouser and curiouser.

woman12345 · 24/08/2017 18:13

@carolecadwalla 8h
Fascinating thread. Brexiteer David Jones from "Southampton"-102k followers & 1000s of retweets. But only posts during Moscow office
hours..
twitter.com/conspirator0/status/900159680806309888