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Brexit

Westministenders: I can't believe it's not butter

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 13/08/2017 09:43

Nigel Farage @ Nigel_Farage
Cannot believe we're seeing Nazi salutes in 21st century America.

Yeah, that's what we said on 16th June 2016, when some dickhead stood in front of a poster.

The thing is, what Farage says with faux surprise isn't unusual or isolated to him. It's widespread. It's perhaps the norm rather than the exception in many circles.

It's represents a total lack of self awareness. It represents the disconnect that what comes out of your mouth tends to have an effect on the people around you, whether intentioned that way or not when you talk about 'others' or 'not belonging'.

It's a direct effect of nationalism.

Patriotism seems to be something that people have totally lost the plot with and don't understand. It's used as a defence for nationalism. It is the last defence of the scoundrel. Patriotism and being pro-EU or not being a racist dick are not mutually exclusive, though you'd be forgiven for thinking differently these days.

I think a lot of people will sit and go, "Look at America, that is awful. I'm glad we are not like that".

Except we are far more than we realise. Grenfell says much about that.

There's an phrase and Southern Wolves and Northern Wolves when it comes to racism in America. The UK is like the Northern Wolf. Sly and silver tongued to justify and hide racism because 'Look they are worse than us. We are the good guys'.

A bit like saying, you talked to an EU citizen and they were just as racist as me, so Brexit is ok.

It's the twisted desperation to justify the othering rather than take responsibility for enabling and emboldening racism. Then dressing it up as some legitimate political cause which actually you have zero understanding or comprehension of the consequences of.

Brexit has some deep roots in Nazi type fantasies. You can not separate the idea that Britain is superior and Brits are better than Europeans from too much Brexit logic. The Empire was not a pretty thing for much of the world. It's worrying.

Not to mention we've had a right wing attack on a group of people outside a mosque in this fashion before the US had that attack yesterday.

Let's not think that because we haven't had blokes with tiki torches providing a photographic opportunity and theatre for the TV producer that we are somehow 'better'. Or not as bad as America.

The only real difference between them and us is the brash openness about it and the fact they have a bunch of guns.

This was predictable. Indeed I expected and I expect more. There will be more and it will get far, far worse in the US. Yesterday was just the start. Trump wants it. He will fuel it. He will capitalise from it. Yes your mate Donald loves a bit of bigotry, Nig.

There no guarantees it won't happen here for various reasons. It just is characterised in a slightly different way because we are British and don't really do brash in anything as it's not our way.

It's too easy for Farage. Or Johnson. Or May. Or whoever to just walk away and innocently say they are shocked and bear no responsibility because they don't wave Nazi flags about.

You don't have to do that, to share the same values or believe the same thing. Salutes and flags are just branding. A repackaged version for the 21st century is even more dangerous.

We won't forget who Farage hangs out with or courts for publicity and attention. Farage only says and does what he thinks he can get away with. That's part of the ugly truth.

We still have not even started to confront the relationship between racism and Brexit. Indeed, much seems to be happening to suggest that after blaming EU, that there are a Brexit opportunities for scapegoating opening up.

For me yesterday was depressing not because it happened, but because we saw it coming and because our country is in denial about being the same.

Farage is the very personification of it.

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Cailleach1 · 25/08/2017 13:44

Again, the reporting of the Outlier Minford. So fringe as to be off the screen. Reported so as to give the impression as just an equally split opinion between reputable economists.

"He may not have released his methodology, but we can reliably guess how Minford generated his latest figures because he has in the past used a grossly unreliable economic model to show startlingly large gains from what has been termed “unilateral free trade” for the UK."

Sorry? He hasn't even released his methodology. Try handing up your maths exam without your methodology.

www.independent.co.uk/voices/hard-brexit-british-economy-study-trade-customs-union-single-market-europe-eu-ridiculous-a7906086.html

BiglyBadgers · 25/08/2017 14:30

It would have been nice if Cable had given us some of these fascinating insights a bit earlier. Dispite all he has said the lib Dems still stayed in coalition with them and helped to maintain the myth or Tory competence. It's a tad frustrating to be honest.

LurkingHusband · 25/08/2017 15:13

It would have been nice if Cable had given us some of these fascinating insights a bit earlier

Politicians "telling the truth" after leaving office is nothing new. I think it tells us more about the politician than the policy, frankly.

(see also War on Drugs )

It seems the road out of parliament leads to Damascus ...

whatwouldrondo · 25/08/2017 15:17

Bigly He did. It was in the MSM from 2014 on and he was open about it in business and education sector briefings at the time, as indeed were Osbourne and Cameron, who recognised the business implications and were putting pressure on her too (though Cameron was happy enough to stoke immigration fears in the wider electorate.)

whatwouldrondo · 25/08/2017 15:54

I think it would be a little ironic to pick out Vince Cable from amongst all the politicians who are disingenuous on principle for criticism for keeping things to himself

" But it was comments he never meant to be heard publicly that landed him in the most trouble, when in December 2010 he told undercover reporters he could bring down the coalition at any point by walking out - and how he had to "battle" to curb Tory excesses and promote his own party's agenda.

He called the coalition's attempts to push through changes in the health service, local government and other areas a "kind of Maoist revolution", which was "in danger of getting out of control".

Most damagingly, he told the undercover Daily Telegraph reporters he had "declared war on Rupert Murdoch" and planned to block the media baron's efforts to take full control of BSkyB.

The remarks led to him being stripped of his powers to make a decision on the BSkyB bid - and were criticised by Downing Street as "totally unacceptable and inappropriate".

It is actually well known locally that you will get the full inside track on any problem you out raise whether it is personal or business. I only raised ever raised one issue with him and I got full feedback on how he and Glenda Jackson were taking a joint initiative please please let there have been a foxtrot involved

BiglyBadgers · 25/08/2017 16:42

So everyone knew she was, lieing, vindictive and incompetent, but we still have her as prime minister. Sometimes I just give up, I really do.

Just to be clear though whatwould, I am not specifically picking out Vince Cable from amongst other politicians, it just so happens that he is the one who has been writing and tweeting a lot about goings on during the coalition recently. Hence, I mention him in response to the previous post. I didn't really think it was necessary to add in an 'also all the other bastards' disclaimer to my throwaway comment.

woman12345 · 25/08/2017 17:29

Police confirm 'significant' investigation into Conservative election call centre

The Information Commissioner’s Office also confirmed it is ‘currently investigating the Conservative Party

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/conservative-call-centre-tory-party-police-investigation-south-wales-neath-labour-mp-wayne-david-a7912641.html

No time limit on investigation this time.

EU accuses UK of ‘magical thinking’ over Brexit

The UK says it can avoid a hard border with the EU but also leave the EU customs union

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-negotiations-talks-northern-ireland-border-magical-thinking-eu-david-davis-paper-theresa-may-a7913056.html

whatwouldrondo · 25/08/2017 17:58

Bigly I can't find the original article as it has disappeared into the google blackhole supplanted by more recent ones but I recall he said in 2014 that he had at first fallen for the myth that she was competent but soon realised that she was just intransigent. As far as the Tory party is concerned though I am quite sure that given the alternatives, Leadsom could not be accused of hiding her very dim light under a bushel, many Tories embraced that delusion, with a hefty dose of wishful thinking that she was another Thatcher or even an embodiment of their "Nanney" fantasies. Plus in so many cases eg Davis / Rabb / Brokenshire they are so incompetent and blinkered themselves they are not equipped to see it in others. This is a party that continues to regard Davis as leadership material....... Basically the Tory party is so far up itself and divorced from reality they can't see the shit....

JustAnotherPoster00 · 25/08/2017 18:26

Wales has lots of very fringe land quality. Receives extra to compensate for this. And still out. It has to be a lack of awareness/publicising about how the EU was responsible for the policy of distribution to the fringes

It was mainly the south of Wales that voted leave, north and mid Wales voted remain because here we are very very aware of who wants to fuck us and who doesnt

BiglyBadgers · 25/08/2017 18:30

Basically the Tory party is so far up itself and divorced from reality they can't see the shit....

Ain't that the truth!

Heaven's, I am feeling depressed by it all today. I think I need to take the night off.

woman12345 · 25/08/2017 18:30

On the missing person discussed yesterday, even Mensch has had posts deleted about him, and his new account, which had the particularly worrying posts, has disappeared.

missmoon · 25/08/2017 18:49

woman thanks, yes, very strange.

HesterThrale · 25/08/2017 19:22

When I read articles like this I feel so sad and angry. Why EU people are leaving....

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/eu-migration-uk-brexit-referendum-latest-net-fall-figures-why-racism-hate-crime-brexodus-government-a7911196.html

BestIsWest · 25/08/2017 20:00

I don't think that's true JustAnotherPoster. Only Gwynedd voted remain in North Wales. Conwy, Anglesey, Denbighshire, Wrexham and Flint were all Leave.

TheElementsSong · 25/08/2017 20:33

Why EU people are leaving....

And the BTL comments, so full of rage and frothing xenophobia, mostly confirm that they are probably right to get out sooner rather than later Sad.

woman12345 · 25/08/2017 20:45

Thanks for posting Hester

The story of the disappearing islanders exposes the post-Brexit claim that “we’re full up” as the factual inaccuracy it is. The Western Isles, which voted Remain, is not the only area of the UK to experience population decline. Liverpool’s population today is nearly half its 1930 peak. The population of Sunderland, the city forever associated with the Brexit vote, is dropping at the third fastest rate in the UK. Meanwhile, our population as a whole continues to age, with a quarter expected to be over 65 by 2045.

www.newstatesman.com/politics/brexit/2017/08/story-disappearing-islanders-exposes-brexit-myth-were-full

RedToothBrush · 25/08/2017 20:52

www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2017/08/25/the-home-office-not-fit-for-purpose
Week in Review: The Home Office isn't fit for purpose

Department Theresa May was head of for seven years, not fit for purpose.

Students don't overstay. Theresa said they did. She got it wrong. And much of the referendum was based on shit like students overstaying.

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HesterThrale · 25/08/2017 22:28

I know Bigly the news is hard to bear sometimes. It just beggars belief the situation the Govt have got us into.
Sometimes you have to look at some pretend news to take your mind off it:

waterfordwhispersnews.com/2017/08/24/phrase-sound-as-a-pound-officially-changed-to-sound-as-a-euro-as-sterling-plummets/

rochdaleherald.co.uk/2017/08/24/may-red-faced-not-personally-delivering-eu-letters/

theulsterfry.com/world-news/the-dup-ate-my-hamster-claims-family-man/

southendnewsnetwork.com/news/brexit-bombshell-as-united-kingdom-forced-to-change-national-anthem-after-leaving-eu/

But sometimes the real news doesn't even seem that much less ridiculous than these stories.

Cailleach1 · 25/08/2017 23:01

"Students don't overstay. Theresa said they did. She got it wrong"

No Red, she did not get it wrong. Some people are saying she lied. She buried the report which concluded that huge amount did not overstay and then continued to say in speeches they overstayed in significant numbers. A less generous person would say that was baldly lying.

Cailleach1 · 25/08/2017 23:12

I read yesterday that she buried a report before the referendum. I cannot find the link now. However, even if she said it without knowing the real number, it would be a lie. Because it would be baseless and therefore made up. A lie.

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/theresa-may-told-to-apologise-to-parliament-over-overseas-students-yvette-cooper-osborne_uk_59a0381ae4b06d67e337335a

OlennasWimple · 25/08/2017 23:25

Students used to overstay in droves - usually the ones who weren't genuine to begin with, or who were at college doing a course but their main motivation to come to the UK was to work. I would hope that as the system has been tightened, and tightened, and all the sponsorship requirements on educational establishments began to bite the number of overstayers would drop off dramatically.

That's part of the problem with immigration policy: the data is always looking backwards, whilst many changes take so long to show an impact (or cannot be separated out with any reliability from the myriad other changes and external factors) that it is hard to find reliable data.

Peregrina · 25/08/2017 23:31

And you base this statement Olennas on..... what exactly? Or are you just an apologist for Theresa May trying to make excuses for her failing to do her job?

Cailleach1 · 25/08/2017 23:31

She wasn't looking backwards at reliable data, either. She was the only minister that maintained the 100,000 figure. Just intransigent.

A foolish consistency based on nothing is the hobgoblin of little minds.

Peregrina · 25/08/2017 23:37

What exactly stopped her from collecting proper data during her time at the Home Office?