Where is the next Brexit Arms thread?

[Valentine2]

I have been waiting for two days patiently. Can't wait anymore.
Kindly bring it back Surfer.
No matter what we discuss or don't discuss there, this discussion must keep going.

Why the fuck would we think we could just be accepted as compliant forever more when we've opted out of agreeing to future regulations?

Dunno, Bear, it rather fits with everything else we've enjoyed this past year.

We're Leaving but we want everything (that suits us) to stay the same.

Except immigrants.

Your mixing up your regulations Peregrina! You have to comply with the regulation of any country you wish to trade with. i.e. we have strict H&S regulations with regard to the flammability of certain things so if something is imported that doesn't comply the importer will be prosecuted. So any UK company can't just decide not to comply with UE rules and regs. if they want to trade with them. So why is it so daft to suggest that as these goods that already comply should be able to be sold as is? No one is going to change their produce so it won't comply why is the EU suggesting we have to start all over again?

corcory the problem is, as ever, our arrogance.

I appreciate that a newspaper story is never going to tell us the whole story, but it it is entirely in keeping with our 'carry on regardless' attitude, that we think we can insist nothing needs to change.

The fact is, we can't make sweeping statements about businesses who comply currently, being granted dispensation indefinitely.

A little humility would go a long way here.

The Billy Big Bollocks tact is just alienating the EU and is a sure fire way to ensure we get the worst possibile outcome.

Bear, there's nothing arrogant about the government saying something is an objective. Your right, newspapers don't always get the whole story but I got all my information from reading the whole story in the newspaper web site just like you should have and didn't just rely on reading the headlines!

Nobody but you are make 'sweeping statements' bear. If you are trading with a country each product you export to them has to comply with their rules and regulations. It's not the company that needs to comply but the product. If the rules and regulations change then you need to change the product in order to comply. No body is suggesting anything is to be 'granted dispensation indefinitely' Where on earth do you get that from.

I am not mixing anything up. Yes, I can see that if a product is one thing on 29th March 2019 then exactly the same product on 2nd April 2019 should still be acceptable. That implies an element of trust, and on the firm saying that it's still exactly the same. If we were still able to conduct business transactions on trust or just a handshake, we wouldn't have needed to take disputes, or even matters of clarification of the law, to a Court in the first place.

Yet again the Government's objective seems to be let's cherry pick the bits of the EU we want, and we will ditch the bits we don't want, like FoM, or paying our way.

corcory, I'm pretty sure it's you who iis being overly optimistic about the governments intentions here and not peregrina and I who are wrong; we're just being realists.

It's yet another example of us attempting to cherry pick.

Once out of the EU the exemptions we previously had become invalid.

Why should the EU allow a different system for us than any other non-Eu country?

At what point would any exemptions expire?

the fact is that details like this should have been worked out a long time ago.

Going in all guns blazing asking to keep the bits we like while dispensing of anything we don't like all whilst the clock is very quickly ticking down, doesn't exactly endear us to the EU or make them inclined to agree to our requests does it?

In addition to bear's statement - in the normal course of events, we might expect some sort of fudge to be worked out. Nothing I have seen of the Government's behaviour since the Referendum fills me with any confidence that a fudge (or be charitable a good compromise) will be worked out. Instead we have had soundbite after soundbite, with the occasional screeching U-turn. Like Theresa May declaring half a dozen times that there would be no election, to waste time calling one, and then throwing away her majority. None of this fills me with confidence.

The beginnings of another u-turn ?

This is the major problem with Brexit; no one, not least those in charge of delivering it, have any idea what they want to achieve and how realistic that is.

These so called 'red lines' are fading very quickly.

It begs the question; is anyone going to be happy with the outcome?

Remainers certainly aren't and leavers who believed the 'red lines' wouldn't be crossed aren't going to be either.

The issues are discussed by Richard North. Now, this may be unduly pessimistic, but at least he is thinking of the issues and what possible work arounds might be available.

So a non EU country gains a trade deal with the EU. The country wants to export goods to the EU. The EU has a system of rules and regulations that these goods must meet. Each item must have completed tests and have a certificate to prove that they meet the conditions. UK companies want to export to the EU. Their goods have been tested and have certificates to say they meet all the tests needed to qualify being able to export to the EU. Why then should they have to get all the existing certification redone at huge expense when everyone knows that these goods already comply and have paperwork to prove it. I really can't see how you call that cherry picking. Seems common sense to me and would look like the EU just being vindictive if they were to insist on all goods being retested.

It's the language that is being used that is the problem IMO.

There is a quote that says goods placed on the single market before exit should continue to circulate freely in the UK and the EU, without additional requirements or restrictions

That isn't just talking about meeting EU standards, it's covering tariffs too IMO. It's basically saying they want to carry on as before.

It also doesn't acknowledge that there needs to be a process for addressing divergences that will arise as EU regulations change.

A more concillatory tone would go a long way if you ask me.

Corcory, my reading of Richard North's analysis on that issue was the the Government certifies that the goods are compliant, which implies to me, that there may not be any paperwork/electronic record. Once the UK becomes a third country, then according to North the responsibility passes to the importer. They would then need to satisfy themselves that the goods were compliant, and there would be no Government guarantee to say that it was, so the individual firm would have to raise the paperwork to satisfy the regulations. I believe that similar happens with Norway, where there is more bureaucracy attached importing from Norway, than there is EU countries.

The Norths - Richard and Peter were/are both Leavers, but they have looked at the issues in detail, and personally I find their opinions well worthy of consideration.

individual exporter, might be clearer in what I have written above.

Peregrina - From what Richard North says my interpretation of it is that at present an independent organization in the EU country of origin that certifies that the products are fit for export to the EU. The problem is that there is a suggestion that as the organizations in the UK will no longer be in the EU so another organizations in the EU would have to certify the products in the future.
It is not the government who certifies these products but an independent organization which has been approved by the EU. There certainly is a paper trail.

However did we end up with these twits in charge. Distressed to have to listen to ghastly Dominic Raab (Britannia Unchained etc) on the Today programme this morning occupying a position of responsibility and pontificating about the role of the ECJ.

I just do not understand what the big deal is about the ECJ. How have people managed to allow themselves to get so worked up over this? It is insanity.

And how crazy it will be when we are still "bound", for all practical purposes, by the rulings of the ECJ (as sane legal experts predict will be the case) but we no longer have the benefit of our own ECJ Advocate General etc inputting into the process. Well done guys.

OK not the Government, but a body authorised by Regulations - not the individual importers, which was the point that North was making.

This looks like another example of the Billy Big Bollocks attitude that is getting us nowhere.

The EU have specified 3 things they want agreeing before discussing trade and we're just carrying on regardless and thinking they'll all go away if we ignore them.

Why are we still playing this arrogant 'they need us more than we need them' game?

We do not have the upper hand here.

Furthermore, if we wander into Brexitland on social media, all we see is the worst kind of simplistic, often racist, flag-waving and comments about Libtards and Remoaners

Just to give an alternative perspective I follow lots of leave voters on Twitter and they are intelligent, pleasant, well-informed, politically astute people who understand what is going on in the world.

WrongTrouser - the Norths are Leave supporters, who definitely fit the bill of being well informed. I gather that they are not particularly nice people.

However, I don't think it can be denied that some Leave websites are full of race hatred, of the worst kind.

It's actually getting beyond ridiculous now

So we really do just want to stop paying into the EU, stop immigrants and leave everything else exactly the same then?

Just to give an alternative perspective I follow lots of leave voters on Twitter and they are intelligent, pleasant, well-informed, politically astute people who understand what is going on in the world.

Out of interest, how do they think it's all going? Do they comment on what's happening in our economy now, or on the progress of negotiations, or are they just waiting and hoping? Dothey ever comment on whether they feel TM and DD are a safe pair of hands?

Indeed Peregrina some leave voters are nasty hate filled bigots. As are some remain voters. Ian Dunt and his followers have been a particular source of spite and vitriol on Twitter this morning.

Bear it would be possible for the UK to have a seat at the EU law making table - if the UK is in the EEA or a similar set up. Norway has limited influence on EU regulations.

Yes but we keep insisting we don't want a Norway style/ EEA agreement.

Exactly Bear. Which is why I'm wondering if that is actually what is now being aimed for?