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Brexit

Westministenders – 10 days to go

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 29/05/2017 11:48

The Maynifesto is out (lets be honest here; other Manifestos are just exercises in dreaming). The rumours of what will happen post Election are in full swing.

The Conservatives are ‘relaunching’ their campaign after Theresa May’s single handed attempt at throwing the election, has needed an intervention.

Yet the reality is that May will win. And win comfortably, increasing her majority. Talk of a Corbyn surge is just that. Talk. He still is more than 5% behind and the excitement about how the gap has closed is getting carried away. Indeed it only helps the Conservatives to get their vote out. Corbyn also started from such a dreadful position, it just makes the effect look more dramatic than it really is and May was always going to struggle to get much more support after the local election peak.

The thing is none of the political parties are covering themselves in glory. No one is offering what people want. In terms of voters not being impressed by their leadership, I don’t think many are really happy and are just going for the best available option out of a particular bad crop. It does not bode well for the future regardless of who wins. We should be worried about the quality of debate and our representatives regardless of who we end up voting for.

Come election night there are going to be some particularly shocking results. The idea that there is a national trend is not right. This election is highly localised in nature. Which will result in these surprises to outsiders but perhaps not locals.

June 9th will make for a lot of soul searching I suspect. For all three parties. There will be leadership questions that remain unanswered and need to be resolved. There are still massive political divides in parties. Heads will roll and need to be replaced. Expectations and the reality have been out of line for all three in one way or another.

Yet all of this is a side show to an extent. Whilst we all scrabble around trying to work it out amongst ourselves, the rest of the world moves forward without us. And the clock ticks.

Merkel has set the tone for the next round of Brexit. It is regarded by the German political elite as ‘Trumpandbrexit’. We are part of the same phenomenon even though many see it through different eyes in this country. This lack of awareness of how we are perceived outside our own walls is something we will face head on at some point and it won’t be good.

Trump himself is up to his neck in scandal. And has risked our safety as a direct result. May might have held her hand but that relationship does not seem to be going well for us. We are between a rock and a hard place and are drifting out to see.

Global Britain has never seemed so lonely and isolated. The rosy future we were promised, becomes ever more a distant dream rather than a dawn of a new age.

Reality will get us in the end.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
29
Valentine2 · 02/06/2017 16:55

Haaawwww! Could Osborne be fielding himself!?

WeakAndUnstable · 02/06/2017 16:56

I just asked this on another thread: who could be the next one then?

Let's just hope Angela Leadsom doesn't go for a second bite of the cherry jam

LurkingHusband · 02/06/2017 16:56

There is a certain pathos to someone who wants something so desperately, and for so long, to only get it, and have it turn to shit in their hands.

(cough, Gordon Brown, cough).

There really is a lot to be said for drawing leaders by lots (it has been done) and automatically excluding anyone who stands for office.

Artisanjam · 02/06/2017 16:59

Liam Fox would stand again. Jeremy Hunt might well give it a go - he was tempted this time. Boris will wait until Brexit is over and his role is forgotten.

What an embarrassment of riches.

LurkingHusband · 02/06/2017 16:59

Since everything in the UK is by convention, rather than pesky law, it should be the work of a few chatshows to create a convention that a change of party leader which leads to a change of prime minister should be followed by a general election.

Isn't it's endless flexibility one of the reasons the UKs constitution has never been committed to a single piece of paper in the UK (unlike the US, where it is learned by schoolchildren).

Valentine2 · 02/06/2017 17:02

I think Farron is doing some good work today. He should strike while its hot. He probably needs to work a bit more on his body language in which Clegg was far superior I think. But his words are good, presence of mind great.
I think Lab/LibDem of Corbyn/Farron will make an amazing team. Corbyn managed to save his reputation on live tv as a reluctant Remainer so that is sorted.
I think Farron could probably do a bit more with his timing and patience where Lucas beat everyone by a mile. But still I hope. Smile

squoosh · 02/06/2017 17:02

Andrea Leadsom and her bid for the role of PM seems like some weird dream. I seem to remember her supporters staged some kind of cheerleading rally through the streets of Westminster demanding she be PM.

It's been a strange couple of years.

Valentine2 · 02/06/2017 17:04

(cough, Gordon Brown, cough).
That's another issue in our household. Lol. DH considered him to be some sort of financial god AND leader. I agree that the recession was essentially not of his making and its unfair to log it on him. But I think it is still half competency and half show. So he lacked on that ground too. You do make mistakes when you consider yourself the leader that everyone has been waiting for.

whatwouldrondo · 02/06/2017 17:05

The way I perceive the way the Libdems have been treated in this election campaign is like the slightly geeky but too nice for their own good child in the playground that the alpha kids and attention seekers turn into a social pariah. All the double standards and trying to blacken them for tuition fees, membership for the coalitions, even being a Christian for god's sake etc. reeks of this. The Labour Facebook ads trying to make them into the scary ones do too. Sadly I do not think Farron and Clegg adopted their Brexit stance as an election strategy. If you had heard them at the EU marches they are passionate Europeans and they would be speaking for the 48% even if they were the 28%.

Sad thing is it works in school yards, and it would seem in politics too. And I told my DD that the school bullies would grow up to be sad inadequate people........

WeakAndUnstable · 02/06/2017 17:07

Andrea Leadsom and her bid for the role of PM seems like some weird dream.

Quite...and....remember how collectively relieved we are when Theresa May won instead. The good old days!

squoosh · 02/06/2017 17:09

God yes, I definitely remember feeling relieved May won. What a laugh!

LurkingHusband · 02/06/2017 17:10

The "genius" of Gordon Brown was to bake benefits into peoples pay packets, and normalise the idea.

Only yesterday I was screaming at the radio at a Tory who was wittering on about "in work benefits" as if it was perfectly normal for employers to pay such shit wages that the taxpayer has to top them up.

Maybe his ambition was to embed benefits into working culture in a bid to prevent any future government removing them. All he actually did was widen the brush the Torys could tar "benefit scroungers" with. And boy, have they...

squoosh · 02/06/2017 17:11

Maybe Theresa would feel a bit braver and invigorated if she put her victory speech Black Watch tartan suit back on.

TheElementsSong · 02/06/2017 17:11

The way I perceive the way the Libdems have been treated in this election campaign

Totally agree ron.

whatwouldrondo · 02/06/2017 17:12

By the way when DM christened me she was being very European and chose a chic foreign name that was unusual. Then a famous actress of the same name rose to fame and it was being yelled across the rec in broad northern accents that mangled all the vowels at lots of slightly younger than me girls. "Eh our " Then she went and anticipated a Prince by a couple of years too... So my brother and I's name were common as muck.....

squoosh · 02/06/2017 17:13

The Lib Dems certainly seem to be held to higher standards.

Valentine2 · 02/06/2017 17:16

I think it is a bit late for Teresa now. She always appeared to me as the person who tunes herself according to populist opinions. That can be a good thing only to the point where you don't have to make tough decisions. Good leaders have to make some of the toughest decisions and have to stick with them. Cameron had this too. If he hadn't called the referendum and had not given in to the pressure....

BigChocFrenzy · 02/06/2017 17:20

iirc, the Swiss deal is on hold since their referendum rejected FOM and the EU then said no deal.

and EU rules are something like other EU expats have 3 months to become self-supporting or leave.
The UK can't manage to track or enforce rules that others can

The UK problems are the non-contributory benefits and nhs, plus no ID cards, so the govt has no idea who (E27) is here, where and since when

LurkingHusband · 02/06/2017 17:22

If he hadn't called the referendum and had not given in to the pressure..

Alternatively, he could have called the referendum he wanted when in opposition - you know, the one we all though we were going to get back in 2010.

RedToothBrush · 02/06/2017 17:27

Lord Ashcroft poll update: Con maj of between 40 and 78.

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 02/06/2017 17:29

The YouGov Model Update 2/6

Cons down to 313 seats. (yesterday 317)
Labour at 257. (yesterday 257)
LDs at 9. (yesterday 10)
SNP 48 (didn’t make note of seat number yesterday sorry!)
Plaid 2
Green 1

Updated toss up list (Includes all seats that YouGov model have highlighted as tossup at any point. Seats currently predicted to change hands in italics):
Argyll and Bute -> NOW Lean SNP CON/SNP (currently SNP – Brendan O’Hara)
Barrow and Furness - STILL toss up CON/LAB (Currently LAB - John Woodcock)
Bath -> BACK TO Toss up from Lean Con (Currently CON - Ben Howlett)
Battersea -> NOW Lean Labour CON/LAB (currently CON – Jane Ellison)
Blackpool North and Cleveleys -> NOW Lean Con (Currently CON - Paul Maynard)
Canterbury -> NOW Lean Con CON/LAB (currently CON – Julian Brazier)
Carlisle -> STILL toss up CON/LAB (currently CON – John Stevenson)
Carmarthen East and Dinefwr - NOW Lean Labour PLAID/LAB (currently Plaid - Johnathan Edwards)
Carshalton and Wallington - STILL toss up CON/LD (currently LD – Tom Brake)
Copeland -> STILL toss up CON/LAB (currently CON – Trudy Harrison)
Crewe and Nantwich -> NOW Lean Con (currently CON - Edward Timpson)
East Devon -> NOW Lean Con CON/IND (currently CON – Hugo Swire)
Eastbourne -> NOW Lean LD CON/LD (currently CON – Caroline Ansell)
Edinburgh West -> NOW Lean SNP LD/SNP (elected as SNP – No Incumbent)
Finchley and Golders Green -> NOW Lean Labour CON/LAB (currently CON – Mike Freer)
Gower -> NOW Likely Labour (currently CON - Byron Davies)
Hendon -> NOW Lean Labour (currently CON - Matthew Offord)
High Peak -> BACK TO toss up was Lean Con (currently CON - Andrew Bingham)
Keighley -> STILL toss up CON/ LAB (currently CON – Kris Hopkins)
Lewes -> NOW Lean Con (currently CON - Maria Caulfield)
Moray -> Now Lean Con CON/SNP (currently SNP – Angus Robertson)
Newcastle-under-Lyme -> STILL tossup CON/LAB (currently LAB – Paul Farrelly)
Northampton North -> STILL toss up CON/LAB (currently CON – Michael Ellis)
Ochil and South Perthshire -> BACK TO to Toss up – was showing as CON gain from SNP (Tasmina Ahmed-Sheikh)
Oxford West and Abingdon -> NOW Lean LD CON/LD (currently CON – Nicola Blackwood)
Pudsey -> NOW Lean Labour CON/LAB (currently CON – Stuart Andrew)
Reading East -> STILL toss up CON/LAB (currently CON – Rob Wilson)
Richmond Park -> NOW Lean Con CON/LD (currently LD – Sarah Olney)
Sheffield Hallam -> NOW Likely Labour was Lean Labour (Currently LD - Nick Clegg)
South Swindon -> NOW Lean Con (currently CON - Robert Buckland)
Stockton South -> NOW Lean Con (currently CON - James Wharton)
Stoke-on-Trent South -> STILL toss up CON/LAB (currently LAB – Rob Flello)
Stroud -> NOW Lean Labour CON/LAB (currently CON – Neil Carmichael)
Thurrock -> NOW Lean Labour CON/LAB (currently CON – Jackie Doyle-Price)
Vale of Clywd -> NOW Lean Labour CON/LAB (currently CON – James Davies)
Walsall North -> NOW Lean Con CON/LAB (currently LAB – David Winnick)
Warrington South -> STILL toss up CON/LAB (currently CON – David Mowat)
Wirral West -> STILL toss up CON/LAB (currently LAB – Margaret Greenwood)
Southampton Itchen -> BACK TO toss up was LAB gain from CON (Royston Smith)
Hastings and Rye -> BACK TO toss up from LAB gain from CON (Amber Rudd)

New to the Toss Up List:
Westmorland and Lonsdale -> CON/LD (currently LD – Tim Farron)
Orkney and Shetland -> LD/SNP (currently LD – Alistair Carmichael)
Weaver Vale -> CON/LAB (currently CON – Graham Evans)

Others that currently look like GAIN/LOSSES
Bedford -> LAB gain from CON (Richard Fueller)
Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk -> CON gain from SNP (Calum Kerr)
Brighton Kemptown -> LAB gain from CON (Simon Kirby)
Bristol North West -> LAB gain from CON (Charlotte Leslie)
Bury North -> LAB gain from CON (David Nuttall)
Clacton -> CON gain from UKIP (No Incumbent)
Croydon Central -> LAB gain from CON (Gavin Barwell)
Dumfries and Galloway -> CON gain from SNP (Richard Arkless)
East Renfrewshire -> CON gain from SNP (Kirsten Oswald)
Kingston and Surbiton -> LD gain from CON (James Berry)
Leeds North West -> LAB gain from LD (Greg Mulholland)
Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland -> CON gain from LAB (Tom Blenkinsop)
North Norfolk -> CON gain from LD (Norman Lamb)
Plymouth Sutton and Devonport -> LAB gain from CON (Johnny Mercer)
Southport -> CON gain from LD (No Incumbent)
Twickenham -> LD gain from CON (Tania Mathias)
West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine -> CON gain from SNP (Stuart Donaldson)
Cheltenham -> LD gain from CON (Alex Chalk)

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 02/06/2017 17:31

There are some real curiosities appearing on this YouGov list now. Here's a few I've spotted. I think I have explanations for a couple at least, about what's going on and why YouGov might be picking out odd things. Do I think they are right? Hmm. Possibly with a couple, but WILDLY out with a couple of others.

  1. The told absence of Darlington from the toss up list with it staying LAB.
    Britain Elects puts the chances of the constituency changing from LAB to CON at 97.4%.
    Electoral Calculus however has it staying as a narrow Labour Hold (52% of win to 48%).
    Lord Ashcroft has it at a 53% win for Labour
    Election Forecast has it at 42% win for Con and 58% win for Lab
    2015
    LAB – 17637
    CON – 14479
    UKIP – 5392
    LD – 1966
    Green – 1444
    TUSC – 223
    Leave: 58%
    (CONKIP – 19871 v Progressive Alliance – 21270)
    Candidates 2017: LAB, CON, UKIP, LD, GREEN

  2. Wolverhampton South West not on the change list
    Britain Elects puts the chances of the constituency changing from LAB to CON at 94.7%.
    Electoral Calculus have it as a Con Gain (58% of win to 42%)
    Lord Ashcroft has it at a 51% win for Labour
    Election Forecast has it at 66% win for Con and 34% win for Lab
    2015
    LAB – 17374
    CON – 16573
    UKIP – 4310
    Green – 1058
    LD – 845
    Ind – 49
    Leave: 53%
    (CONKIP – 20883 v Progressive Alliance – 19326)
    Candidates 2017: Green, UKIP, LD, LAB, CON, Ind

  3. Cheltenham has suddenly popped up as a LD gain out of the blue it seems. It wasn’t on the toss up list but just appeared as lean LD
    Britain Elects puts the chances of the constituency changing from CON to LD at less than 0% because it’s not even on their list.

    Electoral Calculus have it as a Con Hold (90% of win to 10% LD win)
    Lord Ashcroft has it at a 95% win for Con
    Election Forecast has it at 93% win for Con and 7% win for LD
    2015
    CON – 24,790
    LD – 18,274
    LAB – 3902
    UKIP – 3808
    Green – 2689
    Ind – 272
    Leave: 42%
    (CONKIP – 28598 v Progressive Alliance – 25137)
    Candidates 2017: CON, LD, Green and LAB.

  4. Bury North is now down as a narrow LAB win from CON
    Britain Elects puts the chances of the constituency changing from CON to LAB at less than 0% because it’s not even on their list.

    Electoral Calculus have it as a Con Hold (66% of win to 34% LAB win)
    Lord Ashcroft has it at a 95% win for Con
    Election Forecast has it at 86% win for Con and 14% win for LAB
    2015
    CON – 18970
    LAB – 18592
    UKIP – 5595
    Green – 1141
    LD – 932
    (CONKIP – 24565 v Progressive Alliance – 20665)
    Leave: 53%
    Candidates 2017: LD, LAB, CON

  5. Warrington South is now down as toss up. A couple of days ago it was a Lean Lab win
    Britain Elects puts the chances of the constituency changing from CON to LAB at less than 0% because it’s not even on their list.

    Electoral Calculus have it as a Con Hold (66% of win to 34% LAB win)
    Lord Ashcroft has it at a 67% win for Con
    Election Forecast has it at 96% win for Con and 4% win for LAB
    2015
    CON – 25928
    LAB – 23178
    UKIP – 4909
    LD – 3335
    Green – 1765
    TUSC – 238
    (CONKIP – 30,837 v Progressive Alliance – 28516)
    Leave: 50.6%
    Candidates 2017: LD, Ind, CON, LAB

Stroud now a lean Lab gain
Again not on Britain Elects radar
Electoral Calculus have it as a Con Hold (67% of win to 33% LAB win)
Lord Ashcroft has it at a 77% win for Con
Election Forecast has it at 82% win for Con and 17% win for LAB
2015
CON – 27813
LAB – 22947
UKIP – 4848
Green – 2779
LD – 2086
(CONKIP – 32661 v Progressive Alliance – 27812)
Leave: 45.6%
Candidates 2017: CON, LAB, UKIP, Green, LD

OP posts:
howabout · 02/06/2017 17:32

Agreed Bigchoc. I am opposed to having people come to live and work in the UK without access to the same services / benefits as UK Nationals and therefore was opposed to DC's renegotiation.

Otoh I am not opposed to ID cards, espec since atm everyone practically needs a passport / driving licence instead anyway and this would have allowed UK to enforce 3 month rule and know who is here - would also have given more clarity on rights and responsibilities.

All could have been achieved within EU but DC and / or Merkel clearly lacked the political will.

BigChocFrenzy · 02/06/2017 17:34

If the Tory party are sufficiently disappointed by May's performance and the GE result, they might want to cull her.
She has a readymade face saver - deteriorated health (even if she's just bricking i, not ill atm)

BUT, that would be yet more time wasted on the A50 countdown.
and then the next Tory PM still has to deal with Brexit

Thought: Are the govt deliberately running down the A50 clock?
Why ?

Valentine2 · 02/06/2017 17:36

If the Tory party are sufficiently disappointed by May's performance and the GE result, they might want to cull her.
I am completely lost at this. I have absolutely no idea who could it be?