To wonder if there are any Leave voters who actually are having second thoughts about Brexit

[Bearbehind]

Following Tony Blairs call for Remainers to convince Leavers to change their mind I'm wondering if there are actually any Leavers who are worried and might prefer us not to be going in the direction we are heading.

From what I've seen Leavers are more determined than ever and really don't seem in the slightest bit concerned about any negative repercussions so they're not going to be swayed.

Who is Blair aiming his comments at?

Honestly, Remain or leave ... how can you keep insisting that people haven't given reasons for leaving?

They have; repeatedly. You might not like them - but they have.

FFS. Does it matter anymore why people voted Leave?

Because there are too many immigrants stealing our benefits and our jobs?
Because they believe the EU has stolen our sovereignty?
Because they want the shipyards and mines reopened?
Because they want £350 million for the NHS?
Because they want bendy bananas?
Because we are going to have our cake and eat it?
Because they are expecting nothing but sunlit uplands ahead?

Personally, I'm not in the slightest bit interested in rehashing painful old territory. Whatever the reasons were, and my goodness they were a varied and ever-shifting collection of reasons, they have absolutely nothing to do with what we're actually going to get, going forward.

Which, IMHO, is a frikking omnishambling socioeconomic disaster.

creampinkrose there really haven't been many reasons from Leavers whatever you'd like to insist now but my key point is, the few reasons that have been proffered don't even come close to making up for the known consequences.

Again, I repeat, is it that hard to summarise a few points on your rationale for voting Leave?

No, it's not, but I'm not going to be hectored at and talked down to. I don't let people do it to me in rl and I don't do it online. I find your "If you won't answer my questions, that means you can't" line frankly a bit childish.

I guess you're just not comfortable opening yourself up to any criticism or scrutiny

Well, you can guess what you like. I am not interested in discussing my reasons with someone who obviously, from their previous posts, believes themself to be superior to me. It is a pointless exercise. You are not interested in my reasons, you want to score points and argue.

I'm always happy to put myself out there. It's only an anonymous forum, so who cares?

Is that why you are happy to throw insults at leavers you know nothing about? I believe in treating people with respect whether in person or online and whether I am talking to/about an individual or a group, the majority of whom I have never met.

Obfuscation again from Release The Bats.. how predictable!

elements I understand your frustration but the reasons why people voted as they did is hugely relevant still.

If they are not going to get whatever it is that made them vote Leave and are going to be adversely affected by the repercussions then maybe people might start questioning the direction in which we're heading.

As it stands Leavers don't seem to be questioning anything, just walking blindly into TM's vision of what Brexit should look like.

release if you could actually articulate why the benefits of leaving outweigh the negatives you could have done it 10 times over on this thread rather than bluster as you have done so we can just agree that the truth is you, like so many others simply can't.

Release - I completely agree. Sadly, I think their are several on this thread who has less self-awareness than President Trump.

Rocco and Bear - several people declining to answer you isn't obfusticating. It's more that people have given their reasons, across this thread and several others, and you don't like the reasons due to balance.

To be honest, it's really quite alarming that you are unable to see and process reasons given to you, and that you feel entitled to demand repeatedly in the first place. Do you always reply to boundaries placed by others with such disrespect?

just walking blindly into TM's vision of what Brexit should look like.

I think this is an important point as this may not have been the same Brexit that people voted for. The Leave campaign said more than once that leaving the EU wouldn't mean leaving the Single Market but now it seems we are leaving Single Market too.

But because 'democracy' no one can do anything to stop this.

there have

TM's vision of what Brexit should look like.

Sorry Bear you know I'm generally in agreement with you but not on this (questioning Leavers for reasons). I genuinely think there's no damn point, because none of it has any bearing on the reality of what is, and will be, happening to us.

I have found it (personally) useful to imagine Brexit precisely as TM and her eager acolytes have helpfully defined: Brexit means Brexit and we're going to Make a Success of it. Namely, it is an entirely circular abstract concept, which by definition can have no downsides or negative outcomes. This is why no Leaver will have second thoughts and there is no point winding people up by asking - there is nothing to regret or fear.

It is not completely uncontrolled anyway plus we had the option of a brake but DC didn't take that.

From earlier, about EU FOM.
(BearBehind 18:37)

I'm confused by that comment.

What controls do we have on EU immigration whilst part of the EU?
And what 'brake option' did Cameron have, that he failed to use?

And Bear - if you are trying to educate leavers who you think may reconsider if they do not get their unicorn, I suggest you rethink your role as an effective educator.

Semi - I think Cameron was given the option of putting a brake on people coming here from Romania and Bulgaria, but elected not to as we needed the cheap labour.

Semi - we have the ability to deport any EU migrant not in gainful employment. Is that not enough?

Companies which are not headquartered in the EU have established European headquarters in the UK, at least partly, due to the pool of talent available from the EU.

If a U.K. citizen struggles to compete for employment with someone who doesn't speak English as their first language, it says a lot about that person.

And I'll repeat again, by global standards, the state education system in the UK is substandard.

elements I don't really understand what you are saying.

If you're saying the only way to face this is to agree it's all going to be wonderful then can I have some of whatever you're on please

This isn't about reasons for voting Leave per se. It's about what people still believe will be achieved by this and about how that can be balanced with the known consequences.

Whilst leavers resolutely refuse to even consider those consequences we are treading a very dangerous path.

Bear - maybe they have considered them and have decided that on balance they see more benefits in leaving OR maybe they just don't want to discuss it with you?

semi I find it incredibly scary you don't know what brake I'm talking about.

Just goes to prove Leavers only understand what they want to.

We're in this predicament because of the government.

On what planet was it a good idea to let them 'take back control'

Bear and Rocco

I'm not sure what you are trying to achieve with your continued hectoring, rude and snide comments to me.

Are you thinking that anyone reading is thinking "Oh, yes, they are completely right and there's another leave voter who doesn't know her arse from her elbow. I was so right to vote remain/wrong to vote leave (delete as appr) with such high quality and convincing insults arguments on the remain side"? Mmm?

Anyway I shall take my leave as this to and fro is pointless. You can, if you wish, take this as an indication of the weakness of my reasons for voting leave or ability to explain these (and won't you just need to make another sneery, snidy comment?). You can, but it will just suggest a tendency to draw conclusions based on insufficient evidence (and your lack of respect for those with views different to your own).

Thank you Penelope

penelope, you might be comfortable siding with the 'jump off a cliff' brigade- I'm not.

Release

If you're saying the only way to face this is to agree it's all going to be wonderful

Good good, no Bear, just putting in my two pennies worth as to why I think you're on a hiding to nothing asking Leavers for their reasons and whether these are in agreement with how things are playing out.

To be fair, I do know I'm on a hiding to nothing elements

It's why I started the thread in the first place.

There's absolutely no reasoning with Leavers because they are completely unwilling to even consider the possibility this is all going to rat shit, just as long as they get their blue passports.

Bear - I am not siding with them FGS as I am not 10!

I am simply able to see both sides, and am not so arrogant to think that I can learn nothing from others with a different view.

You seem not to realise that by bullying, hectoring, belittling and namecalling, you don't win anyone over to your view. People don't want to take the time to explain, when they risk being on the receiving end of that.

Plus, it is human nature when attacked to defend oneself, thereby entrenching ideas further.

I have seen this thoroughly unpleasant, demanding behaviour across several threads, and to say that no one has explained their reasons is a blatant untruth.

Whether you agree with the quality of those reasons is up to you, and you have no right to think that others views are less important than yours. To feel you have the right to demand an explanation by individuals on Mumsnet is breathtakingly arrogant. It seems you have more problems than Brexit alone.

Interestingly bear, you have said that it's an economic disaster but haven't supported this with any sort of explanation.

I'm sorry you feel there's no reasoning with me, but I feel the same, which is a pity. I feel whatever I say will be ignored as thick / didn't know what she was doing / maybe not racist but everyone who voted Leave was racist / listened to bus campaigns / listened to Gove gets trotted out.

My instinct is that this is something you care very deeply about and that you genuinely don't understand why others see it differently.