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Brexit

To wonder if there are any Leave voters who actually are having second thoughts about Brexit

513 replies

Bearbehind · 17/02/2017 19:42

Following Tony Blairs call for Remainers to convince Leavers to change their mind I'm wondering if there are actually any Leavers who are worried and might prefer us not to be going in the direction we are heading.

From what I've seen Leavers are more determined than ever and really don't seem in the slightest bit concerned about any negative repercussions so they're not going to be swayed.

Who is Blair aiming his comments at?

OP posts:
boredofbrexit · 18/02/2017 20:45
Grin
PenelopeNitStop · 18/02/2017 20:46

If you truly think leavers have no concerns about it "all going to rat shit" and just want blue passports, then that shows that you have asked the wrong questions in the wrong way. Have no leavers discussed this with you in real life? I'm surprised. My friends and I, a mixed voting group, discuss it all the time.

Bearbehind · 18/02/2017 20:47

Interestingly cream I don't recall using the phrase ecomonic disaster that was used by a Leave voter earlier today.

I've simply asked how you think the benefits of leaving counter inflation, tariffs, NTB's, friction in NI

In order the reason with someone you have to put across your POV.

Not one person on this thread has even attempted to put forward an argument for how these issues will be outweighed by the benefits of leaving.

Why is that?

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PenelopeNitStop · 18/02/2017 20:48

Bear - come on, you're not answering me. I can only assume from that that you have no intelligent response.

Bearbehind · 18/02/2017 20:49

penelope what am I supposed to be answering?

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PenelopeNitStop · 18/02/2017 20:49

Bear - perhaps people have thought of all those things, and decided that other things matter to them more. Maybe people think tariffs and NI etc are less important than sovereignty and feeling free.

PenelopeNitStop · 18/02/2017 20:50

The points made to you......come on, you demand responses to your points by others, chop chop!

creampinkrose · 18/02/2017 20:51

why is that because the thread didn't ask for this. The thread asked if we were reconsidering after Blair.

PenelopeNitStop · 18/02/2017 20:53

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Bearbehind · 18/02/2017 20:53

peneolpe stop being so antagonistic.

You haven't posed any questions to me other than 'have I discussed this irl?

You've just ranted at me

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PenelopeNitStop · 18/02/2017 20:54

Ah, you think that was ranting? Grin I hadn't even started.

Bearbehind · 18/02/2017 20:55

Rant away.

But if you're going to demand answers from me, at least try making it clear what the questions are.

Otherwise you look a bit stupid.

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PenelopeNitStop · 18/02/2017 20:57

Haha, I actually Lol'd at the irony of that 😂

Bearbehind · 18/02/2017 20:58

Where's the irony?

You are demanding answers to questions you haven't even asked me.

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PenelopeNitStop · 18/02/2017 20:59

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Kaija · 18/02/2017 21:00

This looks like a very odd unprovoked attack on the OP - is there some history I'm missing?

PenelopeNitStop · 18/02/2017 21:00

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

PenelopeNitStop · 18/02/2017 21:02

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Kaija · 18/02/2017 21:03

Not really seeing it, I'm afraid.

creampinkrose · 18/02/2017 21:03

I think if we see personal attacks we should be reporting them.

Bearbehind · 18/02/2017 21:03

Penelope the 2 points you mentioned were rhetorical questions and your post at 20.42 was a rant requiring no answers.

If you're just going to slag me off then go elsewhere to do it.

kaija who knows what the history may be. Most Leavers seem to name change quite frequently for some reason so I've no idea.

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RoccoW14 · 18/02/2017 21:03

Just thought I'd copy and paste a recent opinion piece, which may be of some interest:

Even as a youngster, growing up in New Zealand, I knew – we all did – that exports were fundamental to our standard of living.
Later, doing an undergraduate degree in economics and law, I learned that, while the benefits from international trade are a matter of economics, the determinants of that trade are so often a matter of law – the trade agreements that govern access to markets abroad. And later, working for the OECD, I learned how infernally complex trade agreements are and how long they take to negotiate.
These are simple lessons.
And yet, watching the Brexit brouhaha, it is not obvious that even these have been taken on board by many of the protagonists.

Tariffs are not, by and large, the issue. Tariffs do raise costs and prices, and thereby restrict trade. But while tariffs on some individual products remain high, decades of negotiation in the GATT and its successor the WTO have brought most down to single-digit rates.
Today the real issue is access.
In the modern world, countries require that most products sold in their markets satisfy nationally-specified standards. These non-tariff, technical, barriers are not necessarily there primarily to protect domestic producers – protection of the consumer is often the basic motive. But they have to be met.
Hence, any producer wishing to export to the US market has to meet US standards; and it also has to have concluded a recognition agreement whereby the US authorities accept certificates of conformity. And, where there are commercial disputes, the exporter, like the domestic producer, has to accept the jurisdiction of the US courts.
The EU for its part has constructed its Single Market, an essentially similar customs and regulatory union where goods are concerned. For services – and particularly financial services – the work is not yet complete. And, as in the US, there is a court, the European Court of Justice, to adjudicate on commercial disputes.
Thus, free trade is in no way the automatic, natural, state of affairs that some have been asserting. On the contrary, international trade takes place in large part only because of the multilateral, plurilateral, and bilateral deals that nation states strike.
If the UK leaves the Single Market, as Prime Minister Theresa May seems to have affirmed it will, it could conceivably revert to being in a customs union with the EU, with: free movement of goods and some services between the UK and the EU; a common external tariff vis-à-vis third-countries; full acceptance of EU standards; and agreement on how to handle rules of origin. But May seems to have ruled that out too.
Failing that, the UK will revert essentially to “third country” status, and thereby have to negotiate Free Trade Agreements, product by product, with the EU in much the same manner as China (with which the EU has around 65 Mutual Recognition Agreements, the US (135), and Australia (82).
The UK would also have to negotiate trading agreements with the 50-odd countries with which it currently trades under the auspices of agreements negotiated on behalf of all EU members by the EU Commission.
All this would be demanding in respect of goods; and even more so for services, particularly the financial services in which the UK specialises. Tellingly, not even Switzerland has been able to negotiate “passporting” rights for its banks to the EU market: thus far they have depended on their presence in London for access to the EU market.
It is in the interests of all parties to proceed as fast as possible. But it seems increasingly clear – and has now been acknowledged by Chancellor Philip Hammond – that the most that will probably be able to be achieved in the two years following the triggering of Article 50 is some sort of transition agreement. Negotiation of the full set of necessary Free Trade Agreements could well take 10 years or more. The Canada/EU agreement alone took seven.
The UK economy will ultimately adjust to all this – economies do. But the process whereby resources move from one activity to another – for example from services to manufacturing; from producing parts for Nissan to parts for Chrysler – cannot be quick or smooth.
No one can know what the main economic numbers will look like. Some engage in a priori reasoning to obtain orders of magnitude; others look for historical parallels. Neither option is perfect.
Perhaps the most informative calculations to date are those of the UK’s National Institute of Economic and Social Research, which estimates that moving to a comprehensive free trade agreement would, over a run of years, reduce the level of UK exports by around 20%. Moreover it seems implausible, purely as a matter of arithmetic, that the smaller markets beyond Europe, even if fast growing, could anything like offset these losses.
One historical episode that may afford some lessons is that of New Zealand. In 1973 the UK agreed to French demands that, as a condition of the UK’s entering the Common Market, the UK should cut its imports from New Zealand, and thereafter reduce them by a declining quota.
In the late 1970s New Zealand’s economy stagnated, and unemployment began to rise, to rates that had not been seen since the Great Depression of the 1930s. So serious was the situation judged to have become that in the 1980s the country engaged in an unprecedented, painful, root and branch programme of structural reform. Today, most economists consider that New Zealand’s economy is more flexible, more adaptable, and more resilient than it would have been without the reforms. But reaching this state took the better part of two decades.
Of course the New Zealand economy, especially then, was a comparatively simple one, whereas the UK economy today is highly sophisticated. But does that make the adjustment challenge easier, or harder?
It will probably be a decade before we will know what the fundamental consequences of Brexit have been for the UK economy. For my part, I find it hard to believe that the protagonists of Brexit have any real appreciation yet of the task that they have set for their policymakers and, behind that, the consequences for the UK economy.

Bearbehind · 18/02/2017 21:05

penelope, asking people to answer questions about posts they've made and then commenting on the fact they are unable to isn't being 'really horrible', it's asking people to back up their comments

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creampinkrose · 18/02/2017 21:06

Do you think it's possible a disagreement with one individual could not be used as a way to insult all people who voted a particular way?

Caprianna · 18/02/2017 21:07

If you don't want to debate or answer questions on Brexit why click on a Brexit thread? Its a discussion forum.