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Brexit

To wonder if there are any Leave voters who actually are having second thoughts about Brexit

513 replies

Bearbehind · 17/02/2017 19:42

Following Tony Blairs call for Remainers to convince Leavers to change their mind I'm wondering if there are actually any Leavers who are worried and might prefer us not to be going in the direction we are heading.

From what I've seen Leavers are more determined than ever and really don't seem in the slightest bit concerned about any negative repercussions so they're not going to be swayed.

Who is Blair aiming his comments at?

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tiggytape · 18/02/2017 18:55

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

PenelopeNitStop · 18/02/2017 18:58

Bear - how do you know leavers haven't thought that far ahead? If know this, then surely you know their other thoughts, such as their reasons for leaving Hmm.

This demanding, confrontational style makes me embarrassed to be a remainer, and just cement's the determination of leavers.

jellyfrizz · 18/02/2017 18:59

scaryteacher

I rode to the Referendum corner on an AIBU thread which got shunted so am new to all the arguments over here.

I'd really like to be able to back Leave if that's the way where we are going to end up but cannot see any good reason to at the moment, only bad things have happened so far.

Please can you point me to the threads where you and others have answered where you've voted leave so I can read through. Promise not to call anyone stupid or racist!

Brokenbiscuit · 18/02/2017 19:00

If you believe current net migration levels are sustainable, is there a point at which you'd believe it would become unsustainable?

Yes, I do believe that it would eventually become unsustainable, but I think we are a very long way off that point at present. I also think it would be self-limiting, as people would eventually choose not to migrate (or to go elsewhere).

Personally, I wouldn't support FOM at a worldwide level right now, as the numbers would be unmanageable and the economic inequalities are simply too great at present - much, much greater than within the EU. However, I would support a relaxation of our current visa requirements for countries outside the EU. Particularly for groups such as students, who contribute a huge amount to our economy - I'd like to see them taken out of the immigration stats altogether tbh.

There is still economic inequality within the EU, of course, but it is not as stark as the difference between the uk and some other parts of the world. Personally, I think that we probably opened up to FOM a little too quickly with regard to Eastern Europe, but I understand that there were strategic reasons for doing so and I don't accept that it has been the disaster that many people like to say it has.

The ideal of the EU is to bring up the living standard in all its member countries to a comparable level. We are not there yet, but the difference is not so extreme as to make the current levels of migration unmanageable. If greater equality could be achieved at a worldwide level, I would love nothing more than to see FOM worldwide.

ReleaseTheBats · 18/02/2017 19:00

Bear It's all about "on balance" isn't it? That is not a different point.

I imagine very few people thought every single aspect of being in the EU was either good or bad. Everyone weighed up whether the benefits outweigh the downsides or vice versa.

How you see this balance, as we know, depends on your age, education, where you live, and I'm sure also on your values and experiences.

Bearbehind · 18/02/2017 19:01

penelope if Leavers had thought that far ahead someone, anyone, could articulate why the positives outweigh the negatives.

So far no one has.

Even all the MPs who voted for A50 didn't do it because they'd been convinced of the merits, they did it because 'it's the will of the people'

If you're embarrassed to be a Remainer then maybe you can tell us what we have to look forward to by leaving

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Bearbehind · 18/02/2017 19:03

Yes it is release but to understand the balance you need to address the very real and confirmed issues like inflation, tariffs, NTBs, NI.

They aren't age or education specific, they're facts and definite consequnces that need to be dealt with.

What benefits will outweigh those?

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RoccoW14 · 18/02/2017 19:04

Although it's cutting off your nose to spite your face, the only logical argument to leave I've heard is that it'll remove the excuse MPs currently have i.e. they'll no longer be able to blame the EU for their own failings.

Brokenbiscuit · 18/02/2017 19:04

Perhaps it would be better to condemn putting such a complex issue to referendum, instead of a parliamentary vote.

I wholeheartedly agree with this.

jellyfrizz · 18/02/2017 19:04

No Bear, they don't owe you an explanation. If Parliament didn't ask for one, it is the height of arrogance to expect leavers to answer to a random on Mumsnet.

It would make for a pretty boring thread if everyone just said that they wouldn't change their vote but didn't articulate why.

Bearbehind · 18/02/2017 19:06

they'll no longer be able to blame the EU for their own failings.

They will still blame the EU. It'll be the EU's fault for not rolling over and giving us a fantastic deal.

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Brokenbiscuit · 18/02/2017 19:08

No, they'll blame us Remainers for not "getting behind Brexit". Whatever that means...

jellyfrizz · 18/02/2017 19:10

Thanks for the link to previous thread Tiggy. Cross posted.

PenelopeNitStop · 18/02/2017 19:10

Bear - they HAVE told you. Sovereignty of our Parliament. Ability to control levels of migration from the EU. You obviously don't like their reasons but they have been given.

Embarrassed to be a remainer just means that I hope leavers realise that we are not all as demanding, arrogant, entitled and utterly unable to see the viewpoint of others as some remainers.

I don't feel I have to tell you what we have to look forward to because, a) I don't answer to you and b) I'm a remainer so why would I? Confused

Peregrina · 18/02/2017 19:10

Most people who voted remain can see merits in the leave arguments but that opinion is rarely expressed here I suspect because this board is self selecting.

I am afraid that the only merit I can see is that people wanted more money for the NHS. I would think a majority of Leavers and Remainers would be happy to unite behind this. We were all very quickly told that this wasn't going to happen.

Sovereignty? We only 'felt' we'd lost it, according to TM's apology for a White paper.

I see little merit in the anti-immigration argument because a majority of areas who voted Leave have low immigration.

Giving two fingers to Cameron/The Tories - yes, I can go along with this one, but it hasn't actually helped anyone yet. So far we have had Theresa May expressing concern about the just about managing, or wanting a country which works for everyone, but we have seen nothing which relates to a plan to bring this about. The only plan we have seen in this respect is a plan for more grammar schools for 10% of the population - we haven't seen anything for the other 90%.

twofingerstoEverything · 18/02/2017 19:11

Facism and the far right in Europe is terrifying...I don't want to remain aligned to that.
Jesus wept.

ReleaseTheBats · 18/02/2017 19:21

Here's another thread where people have said why they voted leave. There are plenty of others. I haven't read through this one past the first few posts and don't know whether it kept on track, but as I say, there are plenty such threads, plus plenty of discussion of why people voted leave on more general Brexit threads.

If anyone wants to keep stating that leavers have not discussed their reasons, I suppose they can do so, but it is not true.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/eu_referendum_2016_/2752350-pro-leavers-please-help

RoccoW14 · 18/02/2017 19:26

Release The Bats - is it really that hard to respond directly to questions around your rationale for voting Leave, rather than obfuscation and posting of tangential links?

MarciaBlaine · 18/02/2017 19:34

"Birdy, I don't think it's a utopian ideal to state that if you can't find people to do the work, either your company folds or you make sure you can find them." But this doesn't take basic economics into account. If you are selling goods or services, you will only succeed if you can make a profit. Saying that companies will have to pay more is fine. I can get behind that. But then their customers also have to pay more and might not want to. The whole flipping corporate tax system in UK needs an overhaul where small businesses have encouragement to grow and large ones need to pay proper amount of tax. The trouble with Brexit is that I fear the government will have to "invest" in stopping the large companies from leaving altogether and the rest will have get stuffed. And then comes more pressure on wages and working conditions.

ReleaseTheBats · 18/02/2017 19:43

Release The Bats - is it really that hard to respond directly to questions around your rationale for voting Leave, rather than obfuscation and posting of tangential links?

A pp asked for links to threads where leavers gave their reasons for voting leave. Bear has more than once stated that leavers on this board have not answered questions about why they voted leave.

If you are unable to see the relevance of my links to the above, I'm afraid I can't help you.

InformalRoman · 18/02/2017 19:44

The trouble with Brexit is that I fear the government will have to "invest" in stopping the large companies from leaving altogether and the rest will have get stuffed

I would still like to know what was said to Nissan ...

Bearbehind · 18/02/2017 19:45

No release I've repeatedly asked you for your thoughts.

It seems they're not going to be forthcoming though.

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RoccoW14 · 18/02/2017 19:47

Again, I repeat, is it that hard to summarise a few points on your rationale for voting Leave?

I guess you're just not comfortable opening yourself up to any criticism or scrutiny.

I'm always happy to put myself out there. It's only an anonymous forum, so who cares?

ReleaseTheBats · 18/02/2017 19:49

penelope if Leavers had thought that far ahead someone, anyone, could articulate why the positives outweigh the negatives

So far no one has

Bear This is your post further up this very page.

Bearbehind · 18/02/2017 19:51

What is your point release?

No one has addressed the question of balance.

Any aspirations (most of which dont stand up to scrutiny anyway) don't address the very real and confirmed issues I mentioned above.

Are you even going to attempt to address this question or not?

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