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Brexit
Original poster

To think this could mean the end of brexit?

665 replies

jdoe8 · 03/11/2016 11:26

Now MPs will be able to block it. Could this be the end of this ridiculous brexit? MPs can not vote for something that they think will not be in peoples interest and its very clear the people that voted to brexit would be the ones worse off.

JO'B is doing a fab job on LBC today and most brexiters seem to be happy that it might not go ahead as they were fooled by lies!

OP posts:
larrygrylls · 05/11/2016 08:29

TheElements,

If you really believe this 'only 17.4 million' voters stuff, then how do you suggest we ever have an election or respect the result? This is one of the biggest majorities in absolute numbers in any form of plebiscite in many years.

Whilst the court's decision is absolutely right in law and is very unlikely to be overruled by the Supreme Court, it is an absolute disaster. It does show the sheer incompetence of Cameron in not having a parliamentary vote ahead of the referendum to respect its result.

There is now no good outcome which will not be divisive. The best of all would be for Europe to throw us a bone, so we could retreat with dignity, but that is very unlikely to happen. The second best is a parliamentary vote and for MPs to respect the referendum. This is far from certain to happen.

morningrunner · 05/11/2016 08:34

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

morningrunner · 05/11/2016 08:36

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Kaija · 05/11/2016 08:37

It is very unlikely that MPs will vote in significant numbers against invoking Article 50. Even my remain lib dem MP has said he will not vote against. But they will at least get to debate the direction of travel before it happens. This is a very welcome return of democracy.

TheElementsSong · 05/11/2016 09:01

If you really believe this 'only 17.4 million' voters stuff, then how do you suggest we ever have an election or respect the result?

It's not me who believes that only 17.4 million people matter, please show me where I said that.

We manage very well in other elections to understand that while a particular party won, we don't then believe that The People all spoke with one voice and voted for one result as a monolithic block, acknowledging a plurality of opinion, discussion and dissent. This is indeed the biggest turnout etc etc, but one cannot hold up the 17.4 million as The Biggest Vote without admitting that 16 million would therefore be Almost As Big unless one was seeking to silence and scapegoat... Hmm

GplanAddict · 05/11/2016 09:17

Kaija please can you explain why brexit will be debated before the parliamentary vote?

Genuine question, I heard it on question time and lots of talking on this thread about TM having to show her cards before the vote, but nobody has explained if/why this would be a certainty.

Could it be that she sets a date for a vote and the MPs refuse to vote unless she has told them her plans? What would happen if they then didn't vote because she refuses to engage?

Also, does anyone know if there is precedent for something like a super injunction so that if terms are discussed in parliment, that our god damn awful press would be blocked from reporting it/ no filiming of commons that day?

I keep thinking of a facebook meme that I saw before the referendum 'My desire to stay informed is utterly at odds with my desire to stay sane' I think I'm getting there!!

topsy777 · 05/11/2016 09:25

"Thank the Lord"

If they dare to block it then we can have an early election on two issues - Brexit and getting rid of the unelected HoL.

I don't think a delaying Brexit is a bad thing at the moment as SM access + cheap sterling is working to our huge advantage at the moment. It has always been a medium term game.

jaws5 · 05/11/2016 09:27

element that's what I meant about falange: Primo de Rivera was a rich boy who managed to convince too many that he was a man of the people. His populist discourse contributed to a terrible civil war, and when Franco seized power in 1939 Falange was the one and only political party for 40 years.

topsy777 · 05/11/2016 09:31

larrygrylls

Just a fact check.

The AV referendum had 13 million voted for and 6 million voted against, majority of 7 million.

However, I expected the Brexit referendum to be respected and UK not to behave like Latin America Banana Rep. A few on the TV and a few on Mumsnet may give the impression that the will of the majority will be ignored, but most politicians and people have accepted the result.

Next week US election will be a fun one as whoever wins will lead to protest. Another test for Western Democracy and remember that whatever America does, she does it big.

Petronius16 · 05/11/2016 09:32

With so many threads on this topic I shall be repeating myself.

The vote doesn't change as the Appeal Judges emphasised.

In 1972 our sovereign Parliament passed a law. In 2016 a majority of people voted to repeal that law.

Parliamentary law needs Parliament to repeal it. Simple.

topsy777 · 05/11/2016 09:32

"The AV referendum" Sorry... 13 million AGAINST, 6 million for.

EnthusiasmDisturbed · 05/11/2016 09:37

I am not sure if parliament can have a closed debate as they are elected by the public so we have a right to know what is being debated as we should have the right to know about brexit plans

I remember that parliament sessions were closed during the Iraq war as what was being discussed impacted national security maybe i have got that confused

I think there should be across board party committee heading the brexit plans

TheElementsSong · 05/11/2016 09:38

Yes jaws I thought so Smile - seems like we're on the same page!

Lovelyjubbly87 · 05/11/2016 09:42

But Greenifer 'probably' is not really a good enough reason. I am sick to the back teeth of patronising comments from remainers throwing their toys out of their pram. Most brexiters knew things would get worse before they get better. The EU are not the only people we can trade with. To use marmite and food costs and the bloody daily mail as reasons that it is going wrong is ludicrous. Yes the pound dropped but again we assumed that would happen! Sometimes you have to make sacrifices for the long run but this is the 'as long as I am alright' culture we seem to have nowadays. Just because someone's opinion differs to your own does not make it wrong. In fact the way a lot of you are speaking is just embarrassing! Calling more than half of your own populations beliefs ridiculous, what kind of sanctimonious a*se hole does that make you? A HUGE one in my estimation. When we leave and then in the future start to reap the benefits I hope you will all admit fault but I feel a lot of you would never admit fault in your own lives let alone something like this. Choose to believe people did not know what they were voting for if that soothes your poor souls. The truth of the matter is we did know. It's not all about 'it's our country' or immigrants that was a very small percent of the voters. The patronising tones you use are the only weapons you have now.

From a middle class, multi cultural family, non chav brexiter!

Being a remainer is not a badge of honour, to some of us it means you do not believe in the strength of your own country and its people (including immigrants who also chose to Brexit)

Mumsnet is like a snobby pack of wolves sometimes it really is, you all think you know best and that you are oh so wise because you read articles that have been controlled by the very people you are supporting (this is the same on both sides). You only listen to what you want to believe and you cannot have a debate without being condescending which really is not big or clever.

After this I will no longer use these pages, every comment where by you label a majorities opinion 'ridiculous' makes you a an utter sanctimonious know it all pr*ck!

I'm glad all this means is that the terms will be discussed and not a total ban on the Brexit. Cheers to that Wine

jaws5 · 05/11/2016 09:42

😊
Signed:
Jaws5 (Jaws as in the Spielberg classic, 5 as in the 5th installment that was never made, thankfully)

TheElementsSong · 05/11/2016 09:49

topsy

"accepted the result" =/= opposing voters have ceased to exist
"accepted the result" =/= small group of, yes, elites decide secretively what Brexit entails and claim it is the Will of All the People
"accepted the result" =/= parliament not allowed to scrutinise this
"accepted the result" =/= if we want parliament to scrutinise this, it means we are a Latin American Banana Republic.

topsy777 · 05/11/2016 10:00

TES

No - committee based discussions would be fine. I always take the stance that we are exiting the EU but the interests of the Remainers and businesses must be taken into account as far as it is possible. We should present a plan to the EU that includes some of these compromises such as Limited Freedom of movements, no ECJ jurisdiction, some budget contribution in exchange for SM access etc.

If EU still takes the stance that either you are in or you are out totally, then we will opt for the latter. If the 27 behave like adults, than it will be a win win.

Block it like Ken Clarke and what is that ex Deputy PM name again will lead to an ever bigger revolt in the earlier election.

jaws5 · 05/11/2016 10:01

Accepting the result =/= totally ignoring the 48% or demonizing them as TM has.

jaws5 · 05/11/2016 10:06

topsy really? Nick Clegg is being consequential with his long standing principles, and giving a voice to half the population.

TheElementsSong · 05/11/2016 10:10

topsy

Ken Clarke and Nick Clegg can't block it, given that almost every other politician is parroting the "Will of the People" line. But if they are brave enough to stand up and vote against it, they will have given 16 million of us a voice (well 2 voices). Out of the 650 members of parliament, I think all but the most totalitarian Leaver could allow a 0.3% voice for 48% of the population without bananas raining down upon Westminster?

TheElementsSong · 05/11/2016 10:14

Being a remainer is not a badge of honour, to some of us it means you do not believe in the strength of your own country and its people (including immigrants who also chose to Brexit)

Ah yes, there's a word for those sorts of despicable people... begins with a 'T' doesn't it? And as for those immigrants (whom you just had to bring into the discussion for some reason), well, we all know there has to be some reason why they're like that...

When we leave and then in the future start to reap the benefits

God, is that you? Halo

Just because someone's opinion differs to your own does not make it wrong

Unless, of course, you're a (T)Remainer.

jaws5 · 05/11/2016 10:27

Hang on including immigrants who also chose to brexit? Only UK citizens could vote so, any non UK born citizens must have now have British passport in order to have voted. Why do you still call them immigrants? Interesting....

jaws5 · 05/11/2016 10:28

Or are you just patronizing them (us) by taking for them (us)?

Peregrina · 05/11/2016 10:29

Commonwealth citizens could also vote, so I assume they needn't have had British passports.

jaws5 · 05/11/2016 10:39

Yes, I know peregrina, but I'm sure that those are not the "immigrants" being referred to here...