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Brexit
Original poster

To think this could mean the end of brexit?

665 replies

jdoe8 · 03/11/2016 11:26

Now MPs will be able to block it. Could this be the end of this ridiculous brexit? MPs can not vote for something that they think will not be in peoples interest and its very clear the people that voted to brexit would be the ones worse off.

JO'B is doing a fab job on LBC today and most brexiters seem to be happy that it might not go ahead as they were fooled by lies!

OP posts:
TheElementsSong · 05/11/2016 10:44

Did they mean that there were special "good" immigrants who have voted for Brexit?

topsy777 · 05/11/2016 10:52

TES

This is a UK wide referendum and it is done. Cleggs and Ken are quite welcome to abstain.

As you said, they cannot block it, so there is no issue here. Given our current SM and competitive advantage, delaying it for 1 year isn't an issue for me either.

If the HoL dare blocks it, then the next election can also include a manifesto to get rid of them adding more savings to £350m a week.
Grin (I say nothing about for NHS..)

TheElementsSong · 05/11/2016 10:59

This is a UK wide referendum and it is done. Cleggs and Ken are quite welcome to abstain.

Thanks for clarifying your position, topsy. Sounds like you would not countenance any voicing of opposition to Brexit in the Commons even though it could have no effect on the outcome, only silent acceptance.

dansmum · 05/11/2016 11:16

In my mind, the facts are that the referendum was called and held without considering following through the full legal implications..laws that the Nation must abide by.( because the Remain vote was anticipated).In my opinion the referendum was called to make a party political point without truely considering the massive impact worldwide( for better or worse) it would have on citizens of this country. The Campaigner that brought this to the judiciary , (and the judges) are not trying to stop or block Brexit..just putting in place the steps that are required for the process. This might slow it down, speed up planning or stop decision making altogether. These people are upholding the laws of our country which we must abide by..isnt that what the Brexiteers wanted? For the country to be free to follow it's own laws? These ARE our laws..we put these legal structures in place to protect our country from chaos and mob rule..to ensure major decisions about our countrys future were made in a calm and measured way that enabled international discussions to take place and national steps to be followed. These petitioners and judges are just doing what the law of the land have set in place. You cannot have a slim majority of the population ride roughshod over the Nations legal process ( and the massive peersonal impact it will have on everyone of us)because ' it isnt doing what they want'.. That is anarchy..and very bad for everyone..politically, economically and for trade. The decicision to Brexit needs careful, thoughtful and timely process...I'd rather slow the process and get it right...than rush headlong of into the unknown and damn the consequences for us all. If we must have Brexit...lets take our time and get it right so it benefits citizens. FWIW I voted remain, but am a pragmatist.

EnthusiasmDisturbed · 05/11/2016 11:42

I agree we should take our time

But we will also have pressure from Europe to move quickly as support from the far right and against the EU is rising, we could end up with the EU being controlled by a majority of parties that are eurosceptic how that will work I don't know

topsy777 · 05/11/2016 12:02

TES

Almost all politicians are talking about 'discussing the forms of Brexit' - which is fine, rather than "Brexit or back paddling" except the few.

So yes, the vote had now been taken. The time to oppose was before the referendum.

topsy777 · 05/11/2016 12:11

To add:

The fact that 16 million people voted to remain is acknowledged.

TheElementsSong · 05/11/2016 12:11

the vote had now been taken

So, 16 million people are chopped liver and deserve no voice. Anybody who thinks Brexit is a bad idea should be silent. Discussion must be limited only to the details.

Perhaps we should run all future elections in this way - it seems most efficient. After election day, all opposition MPs should just go home. The executive can do whatever it likes until the next election, as long as it can be linked broadly to the manifesto, by Royal Prerogative, because The People have voted.

topsy777 · 05/11/2016 12:29

TES

Those are your words.

TheElementsSong · 05/11/2016 12:30

Those are your words.

Why be so mealy-mouthed and shy? Have the courage of your convictions, knowing that you have the Will of the People with you!

jaws5 · 05/11/2016 12:36

I'm continually amazed at Leave voters trumpeting for months about their love of democracy/sovereignty/own laws, and when those are put into place they condemn it as non-democratic, while condemning any dissenting voices and expecting the to abstain in a HoC vote. Astonishing.

TheElementsSong · 05/11/2016 12:56

Astonishing

And then getting all coy about it.

BoredofBrexit · 05/11/2016 14:21

Topsy-love the idea of a manifesto pledge to abolish the HoLGrin

topsy777 · 05/11/2016 14:34

TES

I thought my views are clear - it is time to move on and not time for back paddling. It is time to look at the details but a time for non-Brexit.

You are making absurd extrapolation and I think we should just leave it there.

Secretmetalfan · 05/11/2016 14:35

MPs are elected to represent the people. As the people voted to leave they should abide by that. It's a bloody mess though that was born of an arrogance that those in charge didn't think the people could possibly vote to leave. It would be a very sad day for democracy if the results of the referendum weren't followed through. Why would you ever bother voting again.

topsy777 · 05/11/2016 14:35

BoredofBrexit

Unelected HoL.

TheElementsSong · 05/11/2016 15:09

You are making absurd extrapolation and I think we should just leave it there.

What absurd extrapolation? People who don't agree with Brexit don't agree with Brexit. You're saying that nobody is allowed to not agree with Brexit once the vote is over. The maximum protest you will countenance is silence. Ergo there is no voice for those who don't agree with Brexit even though their disagreement won't prevent Brexit.

topsy777 · 05/11/2016 15:45

TES

Your 2nd paragraph - "opposition should just go home, effective etc"?

The debate about Brexit had been had (albeit badly on both sides). The vote about Brexit had been made. It is time to move on to work out what compromises can be made. Hilary Benn is chairing a Brexit select committee and that will play a part in what the final deal will be which in your case, hopefully preserve much of current scientific collaborations.

TheElementsSong · 05/11/2016 16:27

opposition should just go home

Well if they're only allowed to sit there in silence why shouldn't they just go home? The vote has happened etc etc.

There have been discussions on other threads about whether MPs should reflect the preference of their constituencies (difficult though it is to work it out in many cases) and that if they were to do so, Brexit would still win by maybe 60%. In that scenario I see no conflict between an MP voting against Brexit and participating in the debate on how to minimise the ill-effects of Leaving the EU. It's not an either/or.

Whereas you have explicitly stated that MPs wishing to speak for the 48% should not register their voices at all.

topsy777 · 05/11/2016 17:00

I said they should not attempt to block the A50 or vote against it. They can of course state their opinions, but the decision has been taken on a UK wide basis and questioning it again is anti democratic. Each constituent is not a separate political unit - the decision has been done at UK level.

Anyway, as long as A50 is not blocked, I am not too fuss about it, be it 60% or 100%.

The MPs continue to receive their pay so they should not go home. There are a lot of details work to be done - that is where they can have input.

jaws5 · 05/11/2016 17:05

topsy you say MPs can have an input in the details. "Details" such as? There are hundreds of options to present to the EU, how should MPs discern which options actually representative famous "will of the people"? Will they feel afraid of the mob every time there is a debate on these "details"?

jaws5 · 05/11/2016 17:09

And if (when) public opinion starts to shift, which "will of the people" should MPs consider? Only the one reflected in the 52/48% on the 24 June 2016?

merrymouse · 05/11/2016 17:11

Neither 'remain' nor 'leave' were defined by the referendum. People on both sides ticked the same box for different and mutually exclusive reasons.

A majority of MPs are not going to vote to stay in the EU. That would be political suicide.

However of course parliament should decide what 'leave' looks like, just as they would have been able to decide what 'remain' would have looked like.

iminshock · 05/11/2016 17:12

Keep dreaming

ClaudiaApfelstrudel · 05/11/2016 17:15

I am shocked by the lurch to the right by the government in this country since Brexit. The bigots are trying to destroy our country. What's always united us as a nation, Torys, Labour and Lib Dems a like was a common belief in tolerance and justice no matter where we came from on the political spectrum.

May has betrayed us all and her government is an absolute utter disgrace. It's time for the one-nation Tories to stand up and be counted and over throw this tyranny before it's too late /soap box