A thread for Leave voters to list the positives of leaving the EU

[Bearbehind]

Seeing as the previous thread is nearly full and no one on it has given us a single tangible positive that we can expect from leaving the EU as opposed to staying I thought I'd start a shiny new thread with a thousand opportunities.

When we have control of our own trade agreements we will be able to do so much.

But a moot point is, will we? I expect if we have governments which believe that their priority is looking after a small group of the wealthy, then the answer will be no.

From a non-economic perspective, I have a pretty big problem with importing huge quantities of food from other continents, surely we should try and minimise the footprint of our food and grow it as close to ourselves as possible

I agree Chalalala. Perhaps now is the time for the farming community to put there heads together to try to make the UK as self sufficient as is possible, trying to minimise imports. Saving us money on import tariffs and providing fresh produce and limiting air miles and carbon footprint. Planned and orchastrated correctly this could be a positive of leaving the EU

Chal - there are loads of things we already import from other continents. Loads of things like cars and electrical goods come from the far east and what about all the stuff we get from China?
As far as food goes, I very much doubt African countries will be growing things we get from Europe but maybe we will get things like bananas, cocoa and coffee. and they are nearer than many of the countries we currently get them from.
I for one would love to see a stop to people eating tasteless strawberries from Spain out of season.

And I'm getting pretty pig sick of all this remain pessimism. Ever time someone says anything positive it;s shot down. You know no more than us as to what will happen in the future so the idea that you have all decided what this government is going to do in your left wing minds is just daft. You have no idea.

I can't see why anyone thinks that May has just appointed the Brexit leaders to sort it out then shoot themselves in the foot. Why would she bother? Oh and the government only thinks of looking after a small group of the wealthy! It's always your answer to everything, left wing dome and gloom - you really are all in a bad way.

You know no more than us as to what will happen in the future

And therein lies the problem- you voted for this, you should fucking well know at the very least what you want the future to look like.

TM has no choice but to deal with the shitty stick she's been handed in the best way she can- she wasn't a Leave voter.

Oh and the government only thinks of looking after a small group of the wealthy!

Which is not what I said, but certainly Cameron's Government prioritised the wealthy. A financial collapse in 2008 was caused by sub-prime loans in the USA, so who do we penalise? Banks, tax dodging firms? No. The disabled, the sick.

It remains to be seen whether TM's rhetoric on the steps of no.10 translates into practice. I hope so.

I do know what I want the future to look like but every time any of the leave voters say anything they are laughed at, told how stupid they are and that the Tory Government has some evil hidden agenda and will never do any of the things they said they will. 'Brexit means Brexit' not 'I will think about implementing article 50 eventually then change my mind and then blame it all on the Brexiters'. End of career.

So what do you think of Carol's links, Bear?

Welcome to a brave new little England of Academies R Us, PIP and many other benefits set to be cut to the bone. The land grabbing is a given, what the hell has changed to change that?? As a remainer nurse, I am happy to reassure you the NHS dismantling is really gaining momentum now- you have given Boris, Jezza Hunt et al the go-ahead! Oh, plus the added joy of a future with a huge decline in clinical trials and research for "our" NHS!! THANKS!!!!

I've already responded lastgirl.

I don't see how anything will change if we keep paying into the EU which is looking like exactly what is going to happen.

The leavers vision of the future is a pipe dream.

The reality is going to be much the same as it is now but with a few billion poured into propping up the economy and renegotiating trade deals which put us back to where we are now.

How on earth do you think we are going to continue to pay in Bear? Who says we are going to have Brexit Lite? Who is saying that? Why on earth do you think your vision is a forgone conclusion? What sort of crystal ball is it you've got?

How on earth do you think we are going to continue to pay in Bear?

How on earth do you think we won't?

Just remind me how much Switzerland and Norway contribute to the EU coffers in order to trade?

Eventually TM is going to have to produce some sort of list of things that she must have and things that she is willing to sacrifice. Some things i.e. the Remain vote in Scotland, N Ireland and Gibraltar, just can't be reconciled with what England and Wales voted for. Other things, like, a lack of free movement will make it likely that the NHS will be very understaffed, but we could fill the shortfall with Commonwealth citizens. But how are those who don't want immigration going to like having more black and brown faces to contend with?

Bear Your last post is exactly why you have been unable to see any reason for voting to Leave. You fundamentally believe we will get some Norway/ Brxit lite option which will involve free movement (expect perhaps for criminals), same payments in and out and same restriction on deals outside the EU, dressed up to look like a change - so a lot of noise and uncertainty for nothing.
Us Leavers accept that might be the outcome, but not what we voted for. I voted for:

1. EU free trade deal, but no free movement - so similar to the Canada deal, but covering services. This is not a pipe dream, but similar to deals being made with other groups outside the EU. There may be tariffs in some areas we care less about (agriculture) but nothing of much import to the whole UK economy. We also may make some payment (such as Horizon 2020 and Erasmus) but will be cheaper overall.
2. Initially passporting current EU deals to the UK (ie keep the EU deal with South Korea, for example, as is)
3. Then we can start making deals with other countries and control things to our timescale. For example, the Canada deal could have been in place for the last 3 years if only the UK had needed to agree it. It has been delayed by a couple of small EU members.
4. We can revisit the passported agreements
5. We can decide VAT rates when we want to, not call it a 'win' when we have agreed to start the process of discussing the change with all the 27 members of the EU

Therefore little or no change in the first 5 years, then increasing trade and developments with the rest of the world (and the EU if they want to play). Control over immigration, to get the best people from around the world (US, China, India) not having to restrict ourselves to Europe only and restrict migration of those with low skills to protect the poor and low skilled in the UK.
Labour only introduced the minimum wage and in work benefits because of large unskilled migration taking lower paid jobs. If these people had not been available, companies would have had to pay more for workers.

so a lot of noise and uncertainty for nothing.
Us Leavers accept that might be the outcome, but not what we voted for.

I can't get past this.

5 years is a long time. The list of things that might change between now and then is endless.

You're right- I'm never going to get my head round the leave vote if it was based on nothing changing for 5 years.

That's pretty much what I voted for Carol but I really think there will be much more progress with trade deals and that we will have quite a few more ready by the time we leave the EU in 2 or 3 years time. I don't necessarily see us having a completely free free trade deal with the EU. I I would certainly have no problem seeing other nationals coming into the country. My point has always been that we are currently discriminating against good people for other parts of the world and I don't like that. I do want to see less immigration of unskilled workers and trades we should be able to train up ourselves. There's no reason we can't go back to having student visas for seasonal work for fruit / veg picking etc. but I really think we should be making much more effort to ensure UK citizens do the jobs.
I also want to see the same work and employment laws in place as at present, the same level of help for agriculture, the current science grants and regional grants should be the same as are now and we will still have money left over from the money we pay into the EU to do loads of other things like improve the NHS!
But I certainly don't want to see Brexit Lite.

tiggy, I'm sure someone seeking a divorce could give many reasons why they feel positive about the future.

That's the crux of my issue.

I can't comprehend this 'wing and a prayer' sentiment that seems to have overcome leave voters to the extent they can't give us a tangible benefit other than to animals being transported prior to slaughter.

I probably need to give up trying,

I can see what Leave voters voted for, I just always thought it was an unrealistic vision that was highly unlikely to be ever realised. In my view Brexit lite was always by far the most likely outcome, and that doesn't satisfy anyone. But hey I guess that's the spirit of compromise...

People separating often have no exact idea what their future holds.
But have you never met anyone who has said that if they knew how difficult it turned out to be, they would have tried to make a go of the relationship? I have.

caroldecker's wishes seem laudable enough, but were they on offer? My reading of the Leave campaign was "We dont' like the current set up. Here's what we want" and then to have a blank piece of paper thrust at us.

The proportion of the electorate who were unhappy with the EU was pretty small until the campaign started this year, despite the relentless efforts of the Mail and Express. Largely confined to the right fringe of the Conservative party, and latterly, UKIP.

Despite our "good deal" a large number of the electorate have always wanted to leave and not just on one generation but over decades.

I really don't know how many of the electorate wanted to leave. It mostly seemed an issue for the Tory Eurosceptics. The Labour party had the desire to leave in their manifestos, but when in power, never seemed to do anything. I've been quite active in politics in the past, and it hasn't come up as the main issue - usually schools, housing, roads are the main ones, or the Iraq war, or Cruise missiles earlier.

I found myself wishing this afternoon that there could be a national census where people were asked what exactly it was they wanted.