A thread for Leave voters to list the positives of leaving the EU

[Bearbehind]

Seeing as the previous thread is nearly full and no one on it has given us a single tangible positive that we can expect from leaving the EU as opposed to staying I thought I'd start a shiny new thread with a thousand opportunities.

I should add that I am in a strongly Remain area, which may be why I got the answers I did. However, if I asked friends in the north what their issues were it was usually related to how Maggie Thatcher had destroyed their industry - so placing the blame squarely on a UK politician.

Leaving the EU may have been a theme, but has it been the main one, since it's taken 33 years to get to this point?

Labour were in power in 2005 and 2007, so if they promised a Referendum on the issue, why didn't it happen?

Sadly, now we are having the debate that we should have been having before. I say sadly because it's stirred up so much antagonism between families and friends and legitimised outright racial hatred.

Tiggy, just to add the Scottish National Party were anti the EU in the 1975 referendum which is ironic considering NS's insistence on Scotland staying in now!

Bear i have given you many tangible benefits I think will happen, you don't believe they will. Neither of us knows because it depends how things pan out. I don't think my views are unrealistic, but not certain. Like all things in the future.
I also am convinced that the EU will not give us what we want - the 'renegotiation and the issue of tampon tax proves that the EU talks a good talk, but fails to deliver. If we had voted remain, we would have been ignored in the future. If the renegotiation had got what we wanted, or the tampon tax issue had been dealt with quickly, then I would have voted remain, convinced the EU understood the problem.
Leaving the EU has always been a theme, but the politicians have always been afraid of facing it. A common market was always acceptable, but free movement of all people did not exist until 1992. Up until then, net migration was in the nil to 50K area, since then has been in the 100K+ graph. This is what has damaged UK workers.

A common market was always acceptable,
I am not sure that you can say that. It was to me, and presumably to a lot of people in 1975, but there were always dissenting voices.

There has always been some sort of problem with immigration in some quarters - "no blacks, no Irish". Since 1992 the problem has been with East European immigration, especially Romania, Latvia etc. Less so IMO with the Poles, who were good guys having come and fought with us in the war, and being well educated and good Catholics so helping shore up a few churches. A bit of a stereotype, but the whole campaign was reduced to soundbites and stereotypes.

Bear i have given you many tangible benefits I think will happen, you don't believe they will. Neither of us knows because it depends how things pan out.

At that sums up my problem with all this carol; you haven't given me any benefits that are certain to happen because there are no certainties on the path we've chosen so it's just things you think will happen.

There will be very few people who actually get what they want as a result of this referdum, hence the 'what was the point' comments.

Remain obviously aren't happy as its not what they chose but Leave could only vote based on their 'vision' as that was all that was on offer.

The extent to which those 'visions' can be satisfied can only be realised in time but all the back tracking and stalling along with the lack of future plans can't bode well if you wanted radical change, Brexitlite is looking more and more likely to be the outcome and who will that please?

Carol, I think you're very naive, your "what I think will happen" sitiuation is fairly fanciful. Basicaly what you think will happen is that the UK will get all the benefits of being in the EU and make very few concessions. Its not going to happen, to get the access you want to the EU markets is much more likely to be achieved through bear's EU lite situation.

You refer to low paid workers, in a basic appeal to emotion or justice, but its flawed, the UK always had the power to protect the low paid, it chose not to. Also even the data shows that immigration, whilst it does cause a reduction in pay for very low earner, there is a significant 10% in immigration to an area needed to have a 1.9% fall in wages for the bottom 5% of earners, it actually pushes everyone else's up.

Its funny that you right wing posters suddenly care about the poor, I've seen you post on other threads basically with the attitude that they are lazy and feckless.

smallfox I have never said the poor are lazy and feckless - there may be lazy and feckless people amongst the poor, but that is different.

Bear There are no certainties except things change. What was going to happen if we remain? How would the EU develop over the next 5 years? How would TTIP work out?

You cannot ask for certainties about the future. You asked why people voted Leave, I have told you. I think you agree my aims are reasonable, but don't think they will happen - without Leave they are impossible.

You asked why people voted Leave, I have told you

No, I asked for positives from leaving the EU, ie things that will definitely happen, not your wishful thoughts of what you'd like to happen which made you vote the way you did.

I think we both know we'll never agree on this so its a bit pointless continuing to try- only time will tell who was closest to being right.

Love the fact that Carol cites CETA as a ideal type deal to have with the EU, when it is pretty much the same as TTIP. Oh btw, the constant refrains about TTIP and the NHS are absolutely pointless, the NHS would be protected.

On your desire to protect British workers, the LSE found that immigration does not cause unemployment amongst UK nationals, secondly it found that the main cause of low wage rises in the recent past has been the fall out of the financial crisis, it quite rightly points out that if immigration put downward pressure on wages that why did wages rise between 2004-2008 when immigration was high from EU 8 countries?

If you want to look at inequality then we have to look at the policies of the conservative Governments between 1980 and 1997, and further that of the coalition from 2010, Labour went some way to reducing inequality with it s increased investment in public services, but it wasn't enough to redress the 18 years of neglect by the Tories.

I find your supposed care about British workers iniquitous and disingenuous, its a cover for a much more nefarious opinion.

Carol you won't get an answer to that as the real and only question has yet to be answered!

I think I first asked about 10 pages ago. Bear does not see that anything a Leaver may imagine might happen is exactly equivalent to anything a Remainer may imagine might happen... both based on opinions, nether based in absolute certainty, no crystal ball, etc

Remainers don't have a crystal ball either, but what we could say is that with a seat at the negotiating table we would be able to influence the way the EU developed. It's quite possible that there could have been some sort of deal on immigration because it's not just a UK problem but is being felt in other EU countries. Now, well, we might be able to negotiate something, we might not. Let's keep our fingers crossed, hey?

The UK had lots of concessions from the EU, the Cameron ones were pretty much all the EU was going to offer us further. Is a false to pretend otherwise, that "there was no reform" when the UK had all sorts of opt outs, and exceptions made for it by the EU.

It seems also that whilst there has been an increase generally in the last few years regarding more nationalistic parties, there has also been an increase since brexit for support for the EU.

In the end, remainers do not have a crystal ball, but what we do have is economic analysis by a vast array of different experts that corroborates each others findings, from organisations that have a vast array of different objectives.

When one piece of information says the opposite you remainers cling to it and make appeals to authority, like Carol's misuse of the BOE data, you then fail to note anything that goes against that opnion, like the deloite findings, or the economic activity data released yesterday, the continual low level of the pound and the falling out put from construction and service industries.

If you hadn't shot us all in the foot it might be funny.

Bear does not see that anything a Leaver may imagine might happen is exactly equivalent to anything a Remainer may imagine might happen.

ourblanche what you repeatedly choose not to acknowledge is the fact that we wouldn't need to be staring quite so intently into our crystal balls if we'd voted to remain, the future, whilst not certain was much more predictable.

I prefer to look towards predictions based on fact rather than rely on imagination and none of those are looking terribly positive.

Because the referendum result

• the pound has tanked
• the BOE is propping up the economy
• the PMI data from yesterday is pointing towards a recession
• we need to spend millions negiotating our exit
• there's no clear indication of what Brexit will actually look like

And all of that is before the less quantifiable things like falling consumer confidence, fears over job security, delays in investment etc.

You need to be 'imagining' some pretty incredible turnaround to counter all that.