At last they get it!

[fryingtoday]

Channel 4 at last realise the huge Northern vote was not primarily about immigration but about the decades of politicians having ignored them ...

Let's see how long it takes everyone else to twig and really start to understand why.

Having a negative view of the EU, as well as a negative view of Cameron, aren't mutually exclusive.

It seems like an ill thought-out way to express discontent.

Probably because they're stupid.

By painting this as a victory for the 'ignored' masses, we are encouraged to ignore the fact that a lot of wealthy landowners and a sizeable minority of racists were also instrumental in this 'victory'.

YY.
It was the stupid, the racist and the self-serving.

I am so relieved that other people can see just how AWFUL leave voters are.

They really should work towards taking the vote away from these sorts.
They just can't be trusted to use it in the decreed way.

just how AWFUL leave voters are.

I think you're better than this Mango. It's a tedious way to shut down debate and I thought you were one of the few Leavers who was actually interested in talking things through. Yet here you are, on this thread and others, peddling the tiresome strawman "Sneering elitist Remainers calling all Leavers XYZ." Ironically calling all Remainers sneering and offensive at the same time.

The very thing I tried to do by pointing out that it was not only disaffected northerners who voted leave, is exactly the point you then made in your response - that there is no "one size fits all" Leave position .

"I'm poor, I'm not stupid. We know politicians lie"

That's a brilliant quote from the man you talked to, Mango. Money and intelligence aren't the same thing at all.

Mango, there is nothing wrong with reminding people that wealthy landowners, BNP supporters etc also supported Brexit, because it is a fact.
FWIW I'm sure the 'remain' camp has a lot of 'self-serving' and 'stupid' people in it, too, because strangely enough we do not have a hive mind.
Your insistence that people who voted remain 'sneer' at leavers is beginning to wear thin.

Elements, you have annoyed me now, because you're right and I'm being unnecessarily combative today.
Sorry

I am in a terrible temper today so am not in a reasonable mood to be posting on MN to be honest.
I will reign it back in now.

A4, I've read that somewhere & can't find it again - I don't think it's something I've said but my head is mush at the moment.

No worries Mango

I will go and do the ironing now I think.

It is for the best.

Thanks Elements for the reality check

Mango, this is a really stressful for everyone. It's making lots of us 'combative'!

Brexit - I am in proper knob mode today, honestly.
I have just posted apologies on two other threads too (I am just like a petulant child who has been pulled up).

I am MangoMoon and I am a twat....

The Eu benefitted the people who work for it. People who ran big companies and their shareholders (0 hours contracts etc). And luvvies who enjoy cheap nannies, gardeners,cleaners.
We are better out - if anyone bothered to read what Meps actually do you would think it was bureaucratic joke. I will post a couple of links .

Sorry can't post links but it was Linda mcavan' s website page which explained what the European Parliament does and a quick look at David martins description of what he had done at the April plenary. Those made me realise what a waste of space the whole thing was......

So the EU didn't benefit agency workers then miss Margie? It hasn't benefited clean air acts, or beaches or a whole host of workers rights?

Your little list is a bit biased tbh.

Just wait and see what benefits being out of the EU brings your average joe.

The EU benefits UK universities hugely. Universities employ huge numbers of people - not just academic staff, but admin, cleaners, caterers, creche workers, caretakers etc. I live in a university town and they are the biggest local employer by miles. Universities are already feeling the detrimental effect of Brexit, just two weeks in.
There are no doubt other sectors that employ tens of thousand of people who could be in danger of redundancy in the future.

Do you really think it was only big business and 'luvvies' who benefited from the EU, Margie?

Miss-margie - The Eu benefitted the people who work for it. People who ran big companies and their shareholders (0 hours contracts etc). And luvvies who enjoy cheap nannies, gardeners,cleaners.

All the crap stuff we have is because of the national government and that it blocks the good/seeks amendments from things, take the workign time directive, how was that ever going to be 'good' for UK workers?! UK has the highest inequality in Europe, being a member of it isn't why.

Leave tories have been upfront about how they want to cut employment benefits etc. The tories only recently took money of disabled people to give a tax break, and these people have the keys to the UK. Its bad enough that in todays society that you ave people working full time and not get sick pay.

'When you cross-reference Theresa May's speech with her voting record, it's as if she didn't mean anything she said'

Ergo, anyone who thought voting Leave would make any real difference might like to think again.

Ergo, anyone who thought voting Leave would make any real difference might like to think again.

Why? She isn't even Prime Minister yet! Let's see how things go.

Funny that she said this once:

"He has no electoral mandate."

To Gordon Brown though

If the Tories could have made a difference, or wanted to make a difference to the well-being of the country, they probably could have done it beginning in 2010.

People seem to be forgetting that Brexit negotiations involve other parties.

This north/south stuff wrt Leave and Remain is nonsense. There were plenty of Remain places north and plenty of Leave in the south east. Correlation to Labour vote and by age far more conclusive. Plenty of people in Cornwall, Wales, the North East voted remain and with the reliance on EU infrastructure spend I have huge sympathy for them.

If it isn't just talk and people really did vote against 'London' they need to grow up, wherever they live. There are some of the widest wealth gaps in the uk here, enormous poverty, 7 years life expectancy gap between richest and poorest in my borough alone. Why get at the poorer people? And you can't personally get at rich and successful people very easily, they are internationally mobile and in a far better position than most to just move overseas.

I feel very sorry for people who can't get proper wages and have been left behind by globalisation. However, the EU protects wages. If we compete with China we deal with a productivity gap enabled by appalling working conditions.

I wish as a country that we'd found a way to vote for labour rights and infrastructure spend across the Uk rather than leaving the EU because actually things can get worse for poorer people in this brave new world.

I haven't heard anyone say they voted "against London". Everyone could see what the ballot paper said and it was "Leave the European Union", not "protest against London".

As for "getting at the poorer people", the less well-off among us heard the Project Fear rhetoric as often as anyone else, yet clearly didn't put money as high up their list as democracy and sovereignty. That isn't the remain side's logic but it is theirs and it is valid.

Democracy, don't make me laugh, who voted for May as PM?

Sovereignty is more complex, even your much beloved WTO deal involves giving up some sovereignty, but keep dreaming on.

I'm from the North, and I did not vote out.

But agree, the Government are only for the South; they couldn't give a fuck about the North.

Right then, if thats true, shall we keep our taxes then?

Cause you know you in the North get more than you pay in right? Have done for decades, even before Thatcher and the 80's? I'm from the North and I recognise this.

The North doesn't get as much as London, true, but London gets much less than what it pays for!

So we are agreed that economic policy has starved some northern (and indeed other regional towns ). However I saw in few places the strength of campaigning for remain that went on in the north eg York. Basically the benefits of globalisation and economic recovery (and immigration ) that other parts of the country have seen were not shared or resources allocated where they were needed ke there was not good government. It was obviously fuck all to do with the EU, if anything in spite of it. How do we address the problem? And how do we make sure those same politicians don't carry on with more of the same? Remember these were the politicians who thought the answer was for us all to get on our bike.....