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Brexit

At last they get it!

192 replies

fryingtoday · 07/07/2016 20:53

Channel 4 at last realise the huge Northern vote was not primarily about immigration but about the decades of politicians having ignored them ...

Let's see how long it takes everyone else to twig and really start to understand why.

OP posts:
DanaBarrett · 09/07/2016 15:15

The thing about the workers rights is very relevant. We've gone from a situation were a (usually) man had a good job, usually manual, that paid enough to keep his wife and kids (round here it was embarrassing if the wife worked for more that 'pin money' - it meant a man couldn't earn enough to look after his family). In a company that treated him well, gave holidays, and a good pension at the end.

My first job (in a bingo hall) paid sick leave, holidays and provided both a pension and a savings scheme. In addition to a "good" rate of pay which was negotiated yearly by the union.

If you fell on hard times, the state would help, yes it would be hard but you would get help to live until you got another job.

Now we're in a state where you have to have a two-worker family who never know how much they'll earn that week, no sick or holiday pay, degree educated people sitting in call centres, where you need a degree to get through the door.

The state DOESNT provide. Even if your doctor and your employer agree that you are too sick to work, the state can make a judgement and leave you penniless as well as ill. So how has the EU protected us?

Threats of being 'worse off' are just that because, quite honestly most people round here can't be any worse off. We have a shiny new city centre, and we're getting a new bridge, which is nice, and probably EU funded. But so what?

In fairness, most people round here would vote against Westminister as well, given half a chance. We're stuck with a Labour MP who voted for the bombing Syria and abstained on the welfare cuts. We have no control or self-determination, the leave win has actually woken up a lot here and shown that actually, they CAN make a difference. They have hope they can actually influence their own lives...

I'm not saying growing up in the 80s was idyllic, I remember hearing the miners from my street, but at least they COULD complain, and fight, now your zero hour contract would just be terminated and someone else would take your place.

From where we are up here, rock bottom would be up!

MangoMoon · 09/07/2016 15:27

Elements, touché! Grin

TheElementsSong · 09/07/2016 16:47

Mango Grin

smallfox2002 · 09/07/2016 19:57

I had to break my enforced removal from MN to come and answer this thread.

That clip quite frankly shows that the voters in Sunderland simply "don't get it".

Not once during the entire piece was there anything outlined about the EU or the issues that the North East has with it, I did hear lots of anger about London and about austerity.

The repeated refrain seems to be "nothing gets done for us", which as a native of the North East I find to be totally untrue.

Lets start with public spending, there are 2.61 million people living in the North East and it receives very nearly as much public spending per head as London, using the same data (from the briefing paper public Expenditure by region, published March 8 2015) it has been LESS effected by public spending cuts than London ( Londoners have lost over £1,000 per head, where as the NE has lost 600). Not only this but the North East receives far more in public spending than it contributes in tax and this has been the case for decades. Oh and before people start, London contributes more than it gets in spending and is responsible for 30% of all tax paid in the UK (Corporation tax was divided amongst the regions to make taxes declared from London head offices non applicable to this figure).

Secondly, in the last round of spending from the EU the North East received £494 million for economic development, it was due to get 595.6 million in the next round. In fact the North East has benefited from EU spending far more than any other region since 2007.

So the North East gets more out of Government spending than it puts in and it benefits from more EU spending than any other reason. What does the North East not get?

Nissan in Sunderland got large grants from the Government to help it locate the production line for the electric car there (one for £20 million, one for £9.5 ) the pharmaceutical industries in Newcastle get funding from both the EU and he government. The area has 4 large universities which all benefit from spending from both the EU and government, universities which don't just provide middle class lecturers jobs but a host of others from maintenance, admin, security etc etc. Not only this, but there is also the multiplier effect of these jobs which creates more jobs, also a large student populations brings further spending in the area which of course generates more jobs. Oh and the universities in the NE actively encourage enrolment from local students, they get offers for lower grades.

We can also look at the effect of Government spending through contracts and grants to companies like Rolls Royce and Vickers.

Constant refrains of "we don't get anything" are quite frankly bollocks, yes the North East has been hit harder than some areas by public spending cuts, but there are far more issues in the area than that.

One is the fact that many, many people in the area have not changed their behaviour and attitudes from that of the heavy industy era. Teaching in the North East was challenging for the reason that education was not valued, this was OK when the shipyard, steel works doors were yet the open, or the pit, but those opportunities have been gone for decades yet the behaviour and attitudes are very similar to when they were.

The area has been massively dependent on public money for generations, many of the mines, steel works etc were unprofitable and were subsidised by the tax payer.

The North East has also been the victim of globalisation, other countries ( the ones that Brexiteers seek to do trade deals with) have massive comparative advantages in terms of heavy industry and are able to produce things that were once produced in the NE.

The old era of well paid work that allowed a man to support his family has gone and been replaced with lower paid work that is less secure, and usually requires 2 workers (however, lets not pretend that needing two working adults in a family is not necessary for the vast majority of the population)

All of this adds up to a level of dissatisfaction, but it is misplaced to pull out of the EU because of it.

People are here complaining about employment conditions, which are allowed by our national government, but not by others in the EU. People here are saying that by getting out of the EU things for those at the bottom should get better, when what you have are a government who are far more likely to remove EU regulations that improve workers conditions.

I really am having to stop my self from laughing at people who on one hand despise EU interference and talk of cutting its "red tape" but at the same time blame it for not doing anything to stop governments from changing legislation that protects workers.

What will happen to the North East if we leave the EU and don't secure trade deals? Well lets be honest Nissan might stay but it will cut production because it probably will be able to re locate to Renault factories based inside the EU ( you are aware of the Nissan-Renualt alliance right?) That will mean jobs will be cut, the same will go for the phrama industry, the same will go for the Hitatchi at Newton Aycliffe will probably go the same route.

What will you expect then? If being out of the EU effects London then one of the major net tax contributors ( 30% of taxes, 11 % of spending but 13% of the population), then you can expect to see further public spending cuts.

So public spending cuts, redundancies, less rights.

Yeah this vote has been good for the poor of the North East.

TheElementsSong · 09/07/2016 20:14

Very comprehensive information as always, smallfox and welcome back!

smallfox2002 · 09/07/2016 20:18

It was MN or go back on the cigs.

Argh

mathanxiety · 09/07/2016 20:52

And to that I will add that I can't summon up any remorse whatsoever that your kids may not be able to study or work abroad.

I actually think that one element that fueled the Leave vote was outright resentment. This is what the anger about 'London' is.

mathanxiety · 09/07/2016 20:52

Hopefully back to stay, Smallfox.

smallfox2002 · 09/07/2016 20:55

Its misdirected

London's electorate rarely gets what it wants.

It votes Labour, so it hasn't got what it wanted in the last two elections, it voted remain so isn't getting what it wants now.

LumpySpacedPrincess · 09/07/2016 21:03

Wonderful post smallfox, thanks for breaking your self imposed MN ban!

DiggersRest · 09/07/2016 21:52

Brilliant post smallfox

I can't really believe that people who will be punished the most by this Brexit were the ones who voted for it. A very obvious case of cutting your nose off to spite your face.

waterfallsandmountains · 10/07/2016 12:05

Kummerspeck doesn't the increased desirability to visit Blackpool then trickle down in more spending? i.e. b&b's, fish and chip shops, restaurants, taxi's, shopping? Surely better for their economy that not tarting up the tower etc?

Smallfox what a brilliant post! I have copied and pasted it to read again and digest, thank you for that.

mathanxiety · 10/07/2016 20:08

The state DOESNT provide. Even if your doctor and your employer agree that you are too sick to work, the state can make a judgement and leave you penniless as well as ill. So how has the EU protected us?

Do you understand that you will be just the same or even worse off without the EU? You can actually be worse off.

If it is local politicians who have created this situation how can voting for more power for them, with nobody looking over their shoulder and issuing directives on workers' rights or social policy help you? The current hopefuls for Tory leadership have in the past accepted all expense paid trips from an organisation run by the Koch brothers, and poured scorn on the European Court of Human Rights, respectively. Your choice here is terrible vs. horrible.

Are you really 'stuck' with your local MP? Or can you get involved in politics in your constituency and effect change?

If the EU hasn't protected you, that means your MEP hasn't been doing his or her job. Do you know who your MEP is? What qualities have you looked for in a MEP candidate when deciding who to vote for in EU elections?

Or maybe it's because the UK has actively sought to skirt EU directives, or nullify them. Meanwhile, the electorate has gone out in general elections and voted for parties that take pride in destroying unions and embracing neo-liberal economic policies. It makes no sense at all.

Here are some examples of EU policy on part time and full time work:
eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=cellar:6d9af30f-0928-48c5-934a-cb99b1988eb8

eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=cellar:caa33208-f4fe-4092-8ab8-7010f1885534

bkgirl · 10/07/2016 20:42

Wow the arrogance of some STILL thinking if you voted leave you are poor, uneducated, fat, reckless, doing a protest vote, have no hope, old, don't deserve democracy, illiterate,racist, not a professional, don't own a house etc (Yeah seriously, the putrid accusations I have read).

The same people who leveled this bile often present themselves as PC, polite, introverted and educated.

How offensive, hypocritical, arrogant and ignorant.

smallfox2002 · 10/07/2016 20:49

No BKgirl its accurate.

If you voted leave because its a protest vote, or because you were unhappy with national government decisions. Things aren't going to get better for you.

I'm sorry but this "offensive and ignorant" accusation being labled at people is ridiculous. Go watch the report in question on this thread. No one mentions the EU at all, they mention disatisfaction with London. "not getting anything from the Government" and austerity.

It is perfectly acceptable to question someone's vote to leave the EU when it appears to have nothing to do with EU issues, and when it is very likely that things will not get better for them.

A4Document · 10/07/2016 22:01

I wonder how many of those saying their vote was "just a protest vote", or supposedly "regret" voting to leave, actually voted "remain".

smallfox2002 · 10/07/2016 22:03

I don't think you'll find many of either of those.

HelenaDove · 11/07/2016 01:36

great post smallfox

please keep choosing MN over the cigs Smile

bkgirl · 11/07/2016 02:35

Smallfox you obviously have no comprehension of how a television programme is put together. It's in the edit.
I did see the report and thought it was a supercilious hit job. Pathetic journalism by Channel 4 news.

You just go on feeling superior to 52 % of the country.

smallfox2002 · 11/07/2016 08:43

BK,

This report was discussed here as "At last they get it" and the report praised. I have merely stated that it appears that the voters didn't get it, as none of the issues are to do with the EU and the narrative expressed that the North East doesn't get anything is untrue.

Lets keep slinging that "feeling superior" insult again and again, even though it is not applicable here.

waterfallsandmountains · 11/07/2016 09:10

bkgirl there are many leave voters out there though who did just vote because they hated Cameron and couldn't or wouldn't see the wider ramifications. I watched the emergency Question Time on the Sunday night after the referendum and the first audience member who spoke said that he had voted leave to 'give Cameron a bloody nose' I just buried my head in my hands. It is washing the baby out with the bathwater surely?

MangoMoon · 11/07/2016 09:47

SmallFox, it is you who appears to have misunderstood the OP.

This report was discussed here as "At last they get it" and the report praised. I have merely stated that it appears that the voters didn't get it, as none of the issues are to do with the EU and the narrative expressed that the North East doesn't get anything is untrue.

It's the politicians who are starting to get it.
They've had the massive, previously ignored & minimised discontent of the masses slammed right under their noses.

For any party to survive now, they need to start redressing the balance.

TheElementsSong · 11/07/2016 09:57

What about the wealthy shires that also voted Leave?

MangoMoon · 11/07/2016 10:09

What of them?

Their reasons for voting leave may or may not have been the same as the large working class vote.

There have been many, many reasons given by people who voted leave - one size doesn't fit all.

The overwhelming feeling from the working class vote though was to do with immigration driving wages down, the govt shafting them by not ensuring that infrastructure kept up with rapid population increases; the loss of community; things generally being shit for them over an extended period.

The wealthy shires & the professional leave voters were also to do with the shit heaped on the disadvantaged as well as the EU as an unwieldy behemoth that had become too diverse for 'one size fits all' policies; vastly different to what had been voted for in the 70s; ever closer political, economic & military union becoming too 'superstate' and a bit sinister; loss of sovereignty etc.

BrexitThunderbolt · 11/07/2016 10:18

They've had the massive, previously ignored & minimised discontent of the masses slammed right under their noses.
It seems like an ill thought-out way to express discontent. Doing this via a general election would have been as effective and far less damaging to the economy and the inevitable outcome in terms of jobs, wages, etc.

What about the wealthy shires that also voted Leave?
They do not fit the rhetoric though, Elements! By painting this as a victory for the 'ignored' masses, we are encouraged to ignore the fact that a lot of wealthy landowners and a sizeable minority of racists were also instrumental in this 'victory'.