Have Boris and Jeremy been stabbed in the back? Please can we have some leaders?

[RedToothBrush]

And another thread about antics of President Boris and Comrade Jeremy and all their friends.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/eu_referendum_2016_/2670552-Has-Boris-been-outmanoeuvred?pg=1 Previous thread 1

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/eu_referendum_2016_/2672388-Has-Boris-been-outmanoevered-Will-someone-please-tell-me-who-is-in-charge Previous thread 2

Can we laugh or cry yet?

Are you still sane?

Will this insanity ever end?

Maybe it's all another gamble, he doesn't want to win but trying to distract people from the leave campaigns lies by pretending they are deliverable. So that there isn't agitating for a second referendum/GE.
Or he's just a power crazed deluded fool

Do people think this whole debacle will make a Trump victory more or less likely? I'm hoping that the USA will look at what complete idiots we look in the eyes of the world and come to their senses.
On the other hand, I think that the fact that not many people saw Brexit coming means that the same thing could happen in the USA.
I cannot even think about Gove, Trump and Putin being in power.

Good one annie

My Mum (Andrea) don't like you and she likes everyone
And BoJo don't like to admit that he was wrong
But .....
...If you like the way you look that much you should go and Gove yourself #Govesongs

Do people think this whole debacle will make a Trump victory more or less likely?

I think it's neutral because the vast majority of Americans have no idea what is going on here, and they don't really care anyway.

The ones who do have a vague idea are likely to be either the John Oliver-watching demographics, are the nationalistic tea party loonies. In both cases, their votes are already decided and are not going to change.

*OR, not "are"... gah

Well ,I'm not happy saying this but...I've just skim read Gove's speech here
blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/07/michael-gove-whatever-charisma-dont/
and um , think it reads very well . Apart from his bit about taxes . And yes ,it's a manifesto .

But then ,I was ever gullible .

My US friends are loving the drama - they are constitution nerds. The Democrat is calling for a rerun of the referendum and decrying the lack of checks and balances in our system. The Republican is congratulating us for reasserting our Sovereignty over the unaccountable EU and bemoaning the checks and balances stifling democracy in the US. Neither of them want Clinton or Trump, so I have no insight.

my in-laws are probably pretty average Americans, college-educated but not overly political, tend to vote Republican but not dogmatic about it.

They've only paid (moderate) attention to the whole thing (and then mostly because we live over here), and their general impression is one of a giant "WTF have they done, they are insane". That's also the feeling of one particular member of the family who I'm 90% sure is going to vote Trump.

Probably says more about the way the American media are reporting the story, than about my in-laws.

I'll also reiterate that in my view the vast majority don't care and don't see how it has any bearing on American politics. It's a bit like asking if the result of the New Zealand flag referendum is going to affect the next British General Election. (exaggerating, but barely)

So, I am now terrified that my worst fears are coming true:

Gove and co. were in an unholy alliance with the economic hard Right and Murdoch.

Labour - even the Left of the party - would throw Remain support which was not anti-immigration under the bus in the pursuit of the (wavering) anti-immigration vote. Yes, I know the right/centre of the party have been doing that forever ... but I had hoped that the left wouldn't fall over themselves to do it with unseemly haste.

I honestly think that is a disaster: there's a huge demographic that is going to (ultimately) feel utterly betrayed by John McDonnell starting up with the 'We will cut back on immigration' rhetoric.

I'm not surprised thecatfromjapan, it's the centrist politicians who defend immigration.

the hard right "want the country back", and the hard left is concerned about the negative effects of globalisation for lower earners.

What a pity that Dodgy Dave didn't delay his referendum until after today, which he could so easily have done. A few more people remembering the carnage of WW1 and the horrors of WW2 might then have remembered what the ideal of European integration was about.

Latest YoGov Poll of Labour Party Members. Grey is the previous poll results. White is the latest.

Red Agree with you about the 'not-so-hastily-cobbled-together-manifesto'.

Looks as though Sarah Vines' column about Gove sleeping all night and waking to an unexpected victory was a complete fiction, on every level.

So, a question I now ponder is this: what has Gove promised Murdoch' what has Murdoch promised Gove?

Didn't the previous You.gov poll predict a narrow Remain win? Why on earth are we still listening to opinion polls?

Peregrina DH and I said the very same thing this morning after the 2 minute silence - remembering how we all came together then might have helped us stay together now.

Sink that is uncanny

Chalala I know . But there is a large, really large, group of people out there who were taking hope in an area within Labour that thought beyond the national, who are not White British themselves and/or find the racism/nationalism inherent in the anti-free movement discourse repellant - and this is an actual abandonment.

I think that a lot of the 'Remain' vote in London was based on this, certainly in my neck of the woods. The corss-over with the Labour vote is huge. This just feels to me as though their, assumed-to-be-loyal vote is being thrown under the bus in pursuit of a, perhaps illusory, certainly fickle now, 'disaffected' vote.

I also wonder how secure-for-Labour the 'less immigration please' vote is. Is it even naturally correllated with Labour?

Polls always have a margin of error and when they are this tight what they are really saying is it's too close to call.

In this instance it indicates that the trend is a move away from members supporting JC.

You can't assume though at this point that he wouldn't win another contest - just that he's less likely to win than last time.

what has Gove promised Murdoch

Always the same thing, a crippled BBC and no obstacles in the way of News Corp having a monopoly position in UK media.

I think I've reached the point where I need to go to Twitter and find some cat pictures. Sadly, my Twitter timeline has precious few cats on it at the moment.

Nearly time for a new thread!

The polls weren't wrong on the referendum. They were within the margin of error, which most people seem ignorant of. When there is a bigger gap, polls are much more useful.

I agree thecatfromjapan, I can't quite articulate why but JMD's easy abandonment of free movement does feel like a betrayal. You're probably right that the anti-immigration vote is fickle and not necessarily Labour's core constituency, too.

You need to start following Maru tweeters thecatfromjapan.