Has Boris been outmanoevered? Will someone please tell me who is in charge?

[RedToothBrush]

Thread two from

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/eu_referendum_2016_/2670552-Has-Boris-been-outmanoeuvred?pg=1

Oh yes French reaction would be fun!
They would have to do something then!

At the moment, it looks rather possible that Johnson, backed by Rupert Murdoch (with Lynton Crosby managing his campaign) is going to be leader of the Conservatives. And with ultimate responsibility for negotiating a Brexit deal. I really do wonder where their interests lie, and what sort of Brexit they might negotiate.
I am not at all happy that the future of the country is now possible solely going to be decided by conservative party members when they elect a new leader. It seems really unfair.

Lurking I disagree. I think it can get a lot worse.

We're in an insanely weak position re negotiating a Brexit deal. I think a Norway deal, minus the passport for the City, is going to cause enormous pain.

There is still a lot to play for. Someone who will include immigration amongst the bargaining chips, over and above the economy, is a bit of a worry.

I wish we were French. The streets would be ablaze now, with overturned buses, and real protest.

We are far to civilised for that. We are definitely more keyboard warrior in the UK. You should see my FB.

I appear to have the entire Labour Party supporters club on it. They all joined post 2015. They love Corbyn. Joined on the back of disillusionment with MPs and lack of credibility.

Their comments and friends of friends comments of older Labour Party members are fascinating.

The PLP are not being well received from what I can see...

But at least you would hear about it rather than it being brushed under the carpet as just a 'hooligan'

Plato In Spain all EU citizens, including UK citizens, are required to sign on the register of non-Spanish citizens, and to do that they need a certain amount of income or savings or both, per person including children. The exact requirements vary from region to region.

Something the UK could have done as well. If we wanted to. For whatever reason, we decided not to. It may have been a political decision, or a pragmatic one (imagine the layers of bureaucracy needed).

One of the problems - and something both sides were curiously reluctant to go into, is that the UK has developed the concept of "in work benefits" which (some may argue) allow employers to pay shit wages, whilst the state subsidises their workers. It's these "benefits" (CTC, WTC) which had to be equally available to all EU citizens and which made it possible for a Polish worker to come here and get a low paid job. Or so my (limited) understanding is.

There's something that should really be posted on the "Alice in Wonderland" thread elsewhere about a system which allows employers to pay low wages which have to be topped up by the taxpayer. But then you could say that about a lot of government.

If Murdoch and Crosby are on team boris then it's only a matter of time before his bid for leader becomes pretty nasty
Sajid better look out

This country holds fucking Nurofen to account more that the destructive, lying Leave campaign.

Anyone else unnerved by how powerful Murdoch is? I mean, I've always "known". But it's another reminder.

Sajid better look out

I am lead to believe that Mr Crabb has maybe said some rather illiberal things about homosexuals. If Mr Johnson seeks to appeal to the more liberal parts of the party and electoral as well as the capitalist Brexiteer right.....

Speaker John Bercow says the Labour Party currently constitutes the official Opposition and its leader is recognised as the statutory leader of the Opposition.

"I should add that in making these judgements... I do give and have given thought to the matter and have benefited from expert advice," Mr Bercow says.

SNP denied status as Opposition.

LH the uk is not the only country to have that sort of arrangement.
If I was to choose a country fur its benefits, I would go to France, not the uk
First you have some proper minimum wage, then numerous help (re housing, the dcs etc etc). Income tax is based on the family so several children means very little tax to pay etc etc.

Lurking I disagree. I think it can get a lot worse.

Not sure which of my posts was shitting goodness and light ?

If we view the EU as an organic body, then we are currently seeing how it may fare without a fairly major organ (or tool, if Boris is counted). Most people can live without a kidney, a lung. Even the liver can be regenerated. However, the fate of the excised organ is less certain ....

I have a view that it may be a future that in 2018/2019 or whenever A50 is completed if ever where the EU as we know it today has ceased to exist. Which makes UK-EU treaties moot.

It's not a future the core EU states would like. However, it's worth bearing in mind that they - like the UK - are subject to myriad influences.

It would be ironic if the result of Brexit was to reform an EU that the UK really liked the look of.

LurkingHusband, you have described one of the factors, certainly in the case of EU immigrants in some low-paid jobs.

(We won't discuss those being exploited - illegally even under the UK's laws - and those in relatively well-paid jobs, for the moment.)

The government, of both colours, has been allowing businesses to pay low wages by topping up those wages. The ideal situation for many employers is the employee working 16 hours on minimum wage, thus no need to pay employer's NI contributions, and having the employee's income topped up, depending on his/her circumstances, so that he/she can just about survive. This applies to UK and EU citizens alike.

Any news yet on unions still supporting Corbyn? They were supposed to be meeting this afternoon.

Anyone else unnerved by how powerful Murdoch is? I mean, I've always "known". But it's another reminder.

I wish I was. He's only increased influence in the 20 years since I studied this shit.

Thanks Patty you explained to better than I could.

Red I'm hoping Boris is so duplicitous that he'll go back on everything and negotiate a deal with free movement. I think in his heart (if he has one?) that's what he'd prefer. But I'm aware he's consistently sacrificed conscience for power.

I'm trying desperately to find something positive to think just to keep me going through the day.

It would be ironic if the result of Brexit was to reform an EU that the UK really liked the look of.

I have a feeling this might be what happens. Except we won't be allowed to come and spoil the party.

Way more than unnerved. It makes me green at the gills knowing that someone who doesn't even live in the UK has so much sway over how things are done. I know it's not on to wish for someone's demise..................so I'll just say that I hope his horrific children aren't as adept as he is at being the evil puppet master.

BBC news:

French President Francois Hollande has spoke in Brussels, reiterating the warning on freedom of movement made by European officials.

He said if the UK wants to keep access to the single market it must play by rules, pay into the EU's budget and respect all four freedoms, including movement, adding: "You can't accept some but not others."

He also put something of a pin in Nicola Sturgeon's ambitions, saying: "The negotiations will be conducted with the United Kingdom, not with a part of the United Kingdom."

And, again, Red expresses my view. Perfectly.

Interesting comments on the Spanish system. My daughter was treated under the French health service last year. We were duly presented with a bill. I was treated under the Irish health system and there was a bill. I didn't object in either case but I think there has been a lot of inaccurate reporting about how "free movement" actually works in practice across other EU countries and the impact it has had on our own system.

My understanding is that part of the reasoning behind unwinding tax credits without a safety net was to curb EU immigration. It is also cited by some that the real reason behind University tuition fees. I think EU citizen access could also have been providing a rationale for introducing more charges in the NHS.

patty that is totally true.
But it's not an immigration issue that. Nor is it the reason why immigrants would be attracted to the country.

The government, of both colours, has been allowing businesses to pay low wages by topping up those wages. The ideal situation for many employers is the employee working 16 hours on minimum wage, thus no need to pay employer's NI contributions, and having the employee's income topped up, depending on his/her circumstances, so that he/she can just about survive.

The problem is that this was a redesign of the welfare state by stealth. Now it might actually be a really good system, I'm not equipped to comment. But it was sneaked through and morphed into something different. How different wasn't fully understood until Gorgeous George started fiddling with it, and people who never thought they were "on benefits" realised they were.

Why companies are unable (it's axiomatic they are unwilling) to pay proper wages is the real problem. Maybe labour overheads are too much.

This applies to UK and EU citizens alike. and that's the crux of the problem. No matter how you weaseled the words, you couldn't escape that fundamental right of all EU citizens. The only way you could shit on an non-UK EU citizen was to shit on UK citizens too. (Something Dinky Dave Cameron did without hesitation by the way.)