Has Boris been outmanoevered? Will someone please tell me who is in charge?

[RedToothBrush]

Thread two from

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/eu_referendum_2016_/2670552-Has-Boris-been-outmanoeuvred?pg=1

Anybody else read the report that suggests France is pushing a "No passport for the City but reduced immigration" deal?

Linky ?

Just to note that France is not the EU (whatever they may think). I can't help but feel that whatever happens between the EU and the UK, it's going to involve - if not require - all 27 countries to sign off.

Remember folks, that cataclysmic as this is for the UK, it's hardly a cakewalk for the EU either.

He's so moronic he spells his name 'Arron'.

I believe the story is that his father misspelt it on his birth certificate. I think it was supposed to be Arran after the Scottish island.

In fairness, Plato, a lot of people (myself included) don't really want to move forward yet. As you say, it's a choice between a free trade agreement or nothing.

I still feel I'm not ready to give up on the idea of sitting tight and finding a way to stay in, although I realise a re-run of the referendum is unlikely now, and not necessarily a great idea anyway.

My personal ideal solution (and I posted this on another thread the other day but no one seemed very impressed, so maybe it's flawed in some way I don't understand) would be to decide that the UK needs to stay in the EU for the time being, in order to respect the democratically expressed preferences of Scotland and NI. However, in order likewise to respect the democratically expressed preferences of England and Wales, it would then be crucial to hold a referendum on possible independence for England and/or Wales, followed, if appropriate, by a subsequent referendum on EU membership for either of those countries if they voted to secede (unlikely, in my view).

I think this would respect everyone's democratic rights, but create much greater stability for the UK and its economy for the time being. It would also enable the referendum that counted to be approached more knowledgeably by voters, and also buy some time to tackle some of the structural social problems that caused a Leave vote in the first place (imo).

I am actually thinking of starting a petition on this basis, so any feedback would be welcome.

I suspect a stumbling block may be some constitutional barrier to the UK not including England, but this is a very specialised area of law and I have no expertise in that area.

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07kdsdl interesting radio 4 programme "law in action" about the legal implications of the referendum. Had actual facts!

Thst sounds very reasonable MrsLupo.

Just to note that France is not the EU (whatever they may think). I can't help but feel that whatever happens between the EU and the UK, it's going to involve - if not require - all 27 countries to sign off.

The French will be the ones who will want to play hardball most atm. They potentially have the most to loose from Brexit, and the City is the consolation to that. Whilst they are only one of 27, they are one of most important 'equal' partners.

I disagree. It may not be about 'Free Trade Deal + immigration or nothing'

I think the immigration thing is a huge, big deal for a government that wants to get re-elected and isn't prepared to sacrifice that in the UK interest.

The single market is huge - we need access to that BUT I think there is STILL a massive under-education about what it IS and what it MEANS and DOES.

I think there is a real possibility that 'access to the single market' could be balkanised (sorry folks, don't know correct term for that) and we may end up losing access to quite crucial bits in return for some token 'control over immigration'.

Really. I think people currently seem crazy enough to actually do that.

Someone, someone talk me out of this fear. Someone tell me that this won't happen with the final Brexit deal. I need hope.

LurkingHusband At the moment, it looks rather possible that Johnson, backed by Rupert Murdoch (with Lynton Crosby managing his campaign) is going to be leader of the Conservatives. And with ultimate responsibility for negotiating a Brexit deal.

I really do wonder where their interests lie, and what sort of Brexit they might negotiate.

Really. I think people currently seem crazy enough to actually do that.

Someone, someone talk me out of this fear. Someone tell me that this won't happen with the final Brexit deal. I need hope.

What's the weather like where you are today?
Its cloudy and overcast here.

I'm just going to change the subject rather than give an honest answer to that

Raining like fuck here. For which I am glad. Last thing we need is big groups getting massively drunk and fighting in sunbathed evenings in the park...

There is Germany too.
And France has their own problems to solve (and they aren't small either!).
I just looked at the titles of some French newspapers. Whatever is happening here is way way down the lines and a basic comment of 'it's a mess there'.

But the issue isnt France or Germany or whatever. It's the fact that what DC is asking for goes completely opposite to the ideals of the creation of the away. And France and Germany (and others) who are the origin of that, will not be happy to let go of those.
The attachment to those principles seem to be completely misunderstood here.

Surely they won't sacrifice Passporting for immigration? Boris was Mayor of London, he'll be well aware of the impact.
Isn't there any way that the UK can actually impose more conditions on economic migrants, in the same way as Spain/Belgium et al and spinning this as a victory? Or is our welfare/NHS set up in the wrong way for that?

I like your solution Mrs Lupo and I would sign your petition.

cathy what sort of conditions are you talking about?

thecatfromjapan the latest info seems to show that May was more likely to get the nod from the party but Johnson was more electable at another GE.

This is what will happen in the press over the course of the next few days. Lots of stirring up of the public to get behind him to persuade Tory party members to go for him over May.

Trouble is, that Tory party members are not necessarily the type to go for that... especially if they see Johnson getting booed in public.

(Hey where is Johnson? Hmmm.... radio silence might be better with others trying to do the job for him)

LurkingHusband At the moment, it looks rather possible that Johnson, backed by Rupert Murdoch (with Lynton Crosby managing his campaign) is going to be leader of the Conservatives. And with ultimate responsibility for negotiating a Brexit deal.

There is the stumbling block - which more and more people will start to notice - that he will be ignoring 1 in 2 peoples wishes on everything to do with Brexit. He will need to get legislation through a Commons that has to respect that fact.

I wish we were French. The streets would be ablaze now, with overturned buses, and real protest. Instead we're British. So my posting has just gone to Special Branch.

I never wanted a Brexit in the first place, so I won't be happy with any shape of what Boris has to offer. Petulance ? Maybe. But in the general timbre of debate, it's hardly the worst.

I have a picture of Boris sitting on a throne of sand, as the waves slowly wash it away, until he's alone, ruling in Hell. I'm sure he'd appreciate the allusion, and the title whence it came .

Just had a begging email from the Stronger In mob. For the briefest of seconds I found myself wondering if they had been secretly backing "leave" so they could run a never ending campaign of asking for other peoples money.

I've been reading this thread too much

Isn't there any way that the UK can actually impose more conditions on economic migrants

Its not the immigrants its the employers that are the problem, when people like NEXT advertised for jobs in Poland before the UK, and then procaim "we just cant get the local staff"

Feeding the lazy brit trope, they and others needed to have the book thrown at them.

Plato In Spain all EU citizens, including UK citizens, are required to sign on the register of non-Spanish citizens, and to do that they need a certain amount of income or savings or both, per person including children. The exact requirements vary from region to region.

They also have to show that they will be paying into the social security system in order to get state health coverage (job / self employment therefore paying social security contributions, covered by the UK if on a state pension, paying into the convenio especial in some regions) or that they were, registered as resident before April 2014), otherwise they have to have comprehensive health insurance. It should be noted that the Spanish health system is contribution based, not residence based as the UK system is.

This is allowed by Directive 2004/38/EC
www.europarl.europa.eu/atyourservice/en/displayFtu.html?ftuId=FTU_2.1.3.html

"For stays of over three months: the right of residence is subject to certain conditions. EU citizens and their family members — if not working — must have sufficient resources and sickness insurance to ensure that they do not become a burden on the social services of the host Member State during their stay. citizens do not need residence permits, although Member States may require them to register with the authorities. "

At the moment the only thing you can't do is to pick up your suitcase, come to the uk (or spain or whatever) and then say you need to be looked after and get disability allowance etc...
It is totally ok to go to another EU country because of work, looking for a job, student, as a family member (can be extended family) or just self sufficient.

Access to medical care vary from country to country and everyone should be under the same rule. So if whatever rule is in place 'restrict' immigration in Spain, that rule will also be used fur the 'locals' (eg health cover only if you pay your taxes).
It us wrong IMO to think that people come here for the benefit of the NHS. Of you want to move to another country that, you would go to France instead. Much more benefits and a health care system that is much better.
That's not afar is attracting people to the U.K.

It would be nice to know WHAT is attractive though because then you can make the country less attractive..,

Boris was Mayor of London, he'll be well aware of the impact.

Your point is?

Have you learned nothing over the last few weeks?

Whilst London Mayor we saw - Boris Johnson Mark 1 - the socially liberal mayor of London
During the Referendum we saw - Boris Johnson Mark 2 - the populist Brexiteer.

London voted Remain. As if he gives two shits about the impact on London and by extension the rest of the country. As long as he gets Number 10.

Thank you, Red. My position, beautifully expressed.

I wish we were French. The streets would be ablaze now, with overturned buses, and real protest.

YY to this.

X post.
My comments are directly from what is required to get the permanent residence card here.
My understanding is that it is the direct application of the Treaty.

It is possible that in Spain, to be able to get lets a job seeker allowance, you first need to have worked fur xx months. So if you turn up just looking fur a job, then you have first to be self sufficient (and able to prove it).
Paying taxes to get health care is very common (I'm pretty sure it's the same in France) etc...,
So yes it might be a mix from the way the system is set up here and the fact that some things could be set up (like a register).
I do k is that I cane here to get married with my British DH and no one has ever asked anything about my quelle or savings or anything when I did register fur the NI.
They did t either when my Kate ta can't here either (I cl they didn't ask fur an insurance!)

I'm heartily glad not to be French in those circumstances.

I attended a Parisian protest a couple of decades ago. It was a laugh until I met the CRS. I lost all romantic pretensions of being a street occupying radical.