Has Boris been outmanoevered? Will someone please tell me who is in charge?

[RedToothBrush]

Thread two from

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/eu_referendum_2016_/2670552-Has-Boris-been-outmanoeuvred?pg=1

GingerIvy yes, he is all those things, and he is a hippocrit too, apparently. He is a nasty, smug shower of shite, and I'm very glad the EU see him for who he really is, even if you and so many others don't.

I'm sick to the back teeth of Cameron going to the EU and 'telling' them what they must do. The EU do not have to do anything, and they won't be spoken to like that.

fake The Lib Dems are saying exactly this. They have a hashtag #WeAreThe48 and saying thousands of people have joined since last week.

Don't think it's hypocritical to quote Farage on a re run because people aren't saying he's trustworthy, just that if it would have been called for if the other side were in this position, it should be for this too. Instead of 'get over it, you lost'

To be honest, a second referendum would be a nightmare. Months of uncertainty and then what?
The result is still Leave (which I think it will be), maybe with a clearer majority. Then we've just lost months to organise stuff and get going.
The result is Remain and then? Yoou will have people saying that the first referendum was leave so we should stick to it etc... It would be extremely divisive, even more than things are atm.

A GE is something else and I believe we really need that (amiss the whole collapse of the current system).

Is there a party offering this? If there is I'll join it, I don't give a shit about any of their other policies.

This!

TendonQueen

Please could you do a link to that and any other groups you know of that I could join. This is an absolute fucking disaster imo.

Would those who voted tory at the last election be happy with BoJo as new leader without a GE??
Just seen that the SNP is going to ask the speaker to name them the official opposition!
PMQs will be interesting today

I think I just heard something on the radio that the SNP want to become the official opposition party but I might be wrong.

A 'second' referendum wouldn't be a re-run, though. It would be a fresh referendum asking for opinions on what the actual consequences of Brexit are going to look like.

I'm sick to the back teeth of Cameron going to the EU and 'telling' them what they must do. The EU do not have to do anything, and they won't be spoken to like that.

Perhaps if Cameron had dealt better with the EU in the past and hadn't done a fair bit of EU bashing throughout his time as PM, we wouldn't be in this situation now. But that's irrelevant now, as we are where we are. Do you really think the situation is going to be improved by Cameron going cap in hand to the EU like Oliver asking "Please sir, can we have some more?" You're not really talking up the EU here. "They won't be spoken to like that" ?! Are they dictators now? Is that what we want? To be members in a group that we can't be open and honest with about our expectations?

I've not said that I like Farage, by the way. I said I find it interesting that people rant on about how awful he is, then claim we need another referendum because "Farage said so." He said it would be unfinished business and that he'd fight for a second referendum. Loads of people have said that. It doesn't make him the authority on whether or not it can or should be done.

As far as rebuilding our relationship with the EU, I don't think we'll ever be back to where we were before. I'm not even convinced that it would be a good thing to be back where we were before. They're certainly not going to just roll over and say "oh, you've changed your mind? Great, no hard feelings, we'll just put everything back to the way it was." Nope. We've already lost what few concessions Cameron got in February. We're not ever going to get any more. And if we want to stay in at this point as a member, I fully expect them to demand we switch to the Euro to show a commitment to staying, and to make it harder for us to try this again.

Re Farage, I don't think it's cherry picking. It's more like holding him to what he says. The same with people asking him to guarantee the £350M will go to the NHS. We know he was lying. Asking him to stick to what he said about a second referendum in the result of a less than 2% majority is just holding him to what he said himself.

He didn't say a second referendum would be called. He said he would fight for one. Just like other people are now. Doesn't mean it's right, and doesn't mean it's going to happen.

No, but it's also disingenuous to say it's the right thing when the expected result is not the one you wanted and then to abandon the idea when you get the result you want.
I understand why he's dropped it but I also understand why people are using his own words against him.

It's hardly "cherry picking" to think Forage means it when he says racist things and also that he meant it when he said a second referendum would be needed in the event of a small majority for Remain.

When he thought he might lose, he was clear that accepting the result of the referendum was not a requirement.

Why shouldn't he be held to that just because he won?

BBC Live News Feed

SNP to ask for official Opposition status

Norman Smith
Assistant political editor
Posted at
08:11
A bit more on the news we mentioned earlier that the Scottish National Party will today ask to be declared the official Oppositon at Westminster.

They say their leader Angus Robertson enjoys more support than Jeremy Corbyn.

There are 56 SNP MPs - but only 40 Labour MPs have expressed support for Mr Corbyn.

They also say they are able to fill all the relevant shadow posts to the government, unlike Mr Corbyn.

They point to Parliamentary rules which say the official Opposition must be "prepared to assume power."

A source said: "We have looked at Erskine May (the Parliamentary rule book) and will put it to the Speaker that the Labour Party no longer meet obligations to remain as the official Opposition."

Well done, Labour MPs.

Look what you've done. You couldn't just be adults and deal with this in a responsible manner. You had to go for the big media attention and make a spectacle of the party instead. Hope you're happy with the result.

Has Teresa May said what she's stand for? Would she go for an EEA approach with free movement? I'd like that ( well, I'd prefer EU but that would be better than this carnage), she's said no GE but she's been verrrrry quiet.
Does Boris's transformation back to metro-mayor-man mean he'll accept free movement?
Don't know why I'm asking really, I'm not sure every they know! maybe you wise peeps will have more insight, I'll take bland reassuring platitudes if that's all you've got < desperate>

And if we want to stay in at this point as a member, I fully expect them to demand we switch to the Euro to show a commitment to staying, and to make it harder for us to try this again.

If we never invoke Article 50, all the (substantial) concessions we have negotiated over 40 years will still stand.

We couldn't legally be forced to join the Euro, unless we leave and then decide to rejoin.

Your understanding of how the EU works is very poor.

not sure even they know

Re Farage - held to it? I don't care about the quoting if it's accurate. (as I said, I'm not really a fan of Farage anyway). But he said he'd fight for a second ref. NOT that it was required or would be called for or was guaranteed in any way. There are already people fighting for a second ref, even though Cameron has said that there are no plans for one.

Rather than go around in circles, I think we'll have to agree to disagree. I think a second referendum would be a huge mistake. I don't believe the results would be any different, if anything I think the results would be even more in favour of Leave. And then what? 2 out of 3? More people trying to push for a GE to have yet another referendum? Pulling in younger voters - with no guarantee even that they'll respond or even that they'll vote remain?? It'll end up tearing the country apart. It's not a good idea IMO.

No, Doin my understanding is not poor. I understand that we've already lost the concessions we gained in February. That's fact. I also understand that the EU is not taking this lightly. They are going to want reassurance that this is not going to happen again in a couple years or more. I fully expect a huge push/pressure for us to change to the Euro. They don't have to order it. They can easily make things difficult for us based on legislation they put through in future. They also can refuse to negotiate any further concessions for us. Yes, we can fight some of it, but it won't be easy and we would only be 1 of 28. We could easily be put at a disadvantage.

An interesting read regarding the Labour upheaval and trying to oust Corbyn. Anyone have any further on this? I'm still utterly baffled by this nonsense - their timing is appalling.

www.thecanary.co/2016/06/28/truth-behind-labour-coup-really-began-manufactured-exclusive/

right now I'd take the SNP as the official opposition - at least they have a clear voice and a clear message that the Tories have mightily fucked everything up.

Labour is not going to be in a state to hold the Tory Leavers accountable for anything, probably for months.

I understand that we've already lost the concessions we gained in February. That's fact.

Of course it's a fact.

But they were not much, in the grand scheme of things.

I wae surprised by how much he got TBH, but it was pretty much just window dressing.

But our legal position within the EU, including our vetos, will still stand unless and until we invoke article 50.

We can't be forced to join the Euro.

Negotiating new concessions will be politically far more difficult for years after this.

But we already have a pretty sweet EU deal. That's one of the reasons Sturgeon is so keen to stay in the EU rather than join.

I would also be happy with SNP as the opposition.

Corbyn has utterly fucked the labour party.

The only concern I have is the division in the country is likely to get wider if the SNP is the Opposition. We've already got a huge divide in "remain v leave" but I'm loathe to add "scotland v england" to the mix. Hopefully it won't reach that.

But I'm not blaming the SNP for taking the opportunity, please don't misunderstand. They're doing what they feel they need to, and that's fine. I AM however seriously angry at the Labour party for allowing it to happen through their own behaviour at the most inopportune time imaginable. They've dropped the ball in a big big way.