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Brexit

Has Boris been outmanoevered? Will someone please tell me who is in charge?

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 27/06/2016 21:17

Thread two from

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/eu_referendum_2016_/2670552-Has-Boris-been-outmanoeuvred?pg=1

OP posts:
Thread gallery
8
GingerIvy · 29/06/2016 08:42

We can't be forced to join the Euro. I did agree with this. They can't directly force us. But they can, through future legislation, make things much more difficult for us and put pressure on us regarding changing to the Euro. I stand by the statement that they're going to want some concessions from us to ensure that we don't turn around and do this again in a few years. And when you look at it, the Euro is a huge binding factor which would make it very difficult for us to even consider it in the future. It's a huge factor in other countries staying.

DoinItFine · 29/06/2016 08:44

The PLP were dead right to ask their Brexit supporting leader to go in the wake of the Leave vote.

Corbyn was ready to press the big red button immediately, with no plan of action and a right wing Tory government in power.

He is a liability now.

DoinItFine · 29/06/2016 08:47

They can't force any "concessions" out of us if we never invoke Article 50.

We will have lost our plum commissioner job, and some of our credibility, but they can't change our legal position within the Union.

GingerIvy · 29/06/2016 08:53

I'm struggling with the Labour thing. I am on the fence about Corbyn. I like him, but I can see the issues. My problem is with how the MPs handled it. They've had issues with him for ages, many have never supported him but could never come up with a suitable replacement, so they just pouted and whinged and undermined him at every opportunity. The timing of this was horrific and making it such a huge media circus has only diminished the Labour party. They seem to be willing to drag the whole party through the muck just to get at Corbyn.

As much as I don't like the Tories, they're in similar disarray - although to due to lack of support of their leader. A large part of them, from what I understand, do not want Boris Johnson as PM. So rather than spend an inordinate amount of time on discrediting him, they are pushing forward numerous other candidates and talking them up. Isn't that much more sensible?

And trust me, when I say that I think the Tories are handling something better than Labour, that's a shock even to me, as I've never been a fan of the Tory party. Grin

GingerIvy · 29/06/2016 08:54

Doin As I said, we're clearly going to have to agree to disagree on this. For the umpteenth time, I have said I agree that they can't "force" us to change to the Euro. I can't keep having the same conversation over and over again.

GingerIvy · 29/06/2016 08:55

At least a little positive today.

FTSE 100 back to January levels
Posted at
08:35
More on the financial markets. Our colleagues over on Business Live tell us that in the opening minutes, the FTSE 100 nudged above 6,242 points - where the index was at the start of the year. It's the first time the blue-chip index has hit that level since the Brexit vote.

Barclays is the biggest riser, with Old Mutual and Lloyds Banking Group also among the highest gainers this morning, all adding more than 3%.

The FTSE 250 is also up about 1.6% at 17,575 points. The companies included in that index are more UK focused than those in the FTSE 100.

GingerIvy · 29/06/2016 08:57

And Nicky Morgan heard from. All those wanting testing prior to voting, this is likely your candidate. lol

There is a positive case to made for immigration - Nicky Morgan

Today Programme
BBC Radio 4
Posted at
08:46
"I'm actively considering it," says Education Secretary Nicky Morgan when she's asked if she's running for Conservative leader.

Despite not being 100% committed, she says her "campaign" would focus on building "a coalition of voters" to reach out to people on matters far more wide-ranging than just Europe.

Back on the EU, she says the crucial thing is access to the single market "and accepting that coming with that is some movement of people".

Ms Morgan insists "there is a positive case to made for immigration" and "we need a much better debate" about the issue.

GingerIvy · 29/06/2016 08:58

Nicky Morgan says she represents "a diverse community" in the Midlands and wants to recognise all the positive contributions immigrants have made.

It's put to her that her stance puts her out of step with much of the electorate who want immigration cut.

"I think what people wanted is control," and argues the country "already has that".

To that, the Sunday Times deputy political editor tweets...Britain does have control of its borders says nicky Morgan - bold pitch

GingerIvy · 29/06/2016 08:59

"We've ended up sometimes with a soundbite political era," says Nicky Morgan, arguing that politicians must "level with the British people" and "have a proper conversation". On the EU and many other matters there are too many example of people promising things but failing to deliver, she adds.

It sounds like the education secretary is making a pitch for the leadership, but it's not official yet and she has until noon on Thursday to formally declare.

*
This from the woman that absolutely refused to listen to the public regarding schools.

RedToothBrush · 29/06/2016 09:18

After the dinner with Dave last night, Angela Merkel said
“We did not discuss the possibility that the UK will not invoke article 50, and I consider this an impossibility.”

If we do not invoke, this is a problem - we will have uncertainty for years and it will be a manifesto item for every party. Think about that. If we have years of crap with no investment and an inability to widen our trade elsewhere, whilst France and German strip us of our business assets, our country will be a mess.

If we never invoke Article 50, all the (substantial) concessions we have negotiated over 40 years will still stand.
We couldn't legally be forced to join the Euro, unless we leave and then decide to rejoin.
Your understanding of how the EU works is very poor.

Meanwhile, whilst we are effectively suspended from the EU, we can have all the tariff free trade we like, but we have to respect the movement of free people at the same time. Politically this is an issue that isn't going away now people believe this is being addressed. (even if this addressing is to say, errr actually we can't do it)

We will not have any influence in a lot of the decisions made in the EU. We simply won't be invited to meetings. We have to accept what's on the table which will not necessarily be favourable to us. (See French Referendum and the Lisbon Treaty). If we decide to veto, this is not a good thing and I think there is room to argue, that this would trigger our exit at this point.

Article 7 theoretically starts to be an option for the EU. We are obstructing the democratic workings of the EU whilst not trying to further the intent of the democratic nature of the referendum.

In essence, the only way we can just 'not activation a50' is to belt up and join in with Europe wholeheartedly and without objection. Which just ain't happening....

All the while we still have an underlying problem here: if we do stay we always have this shadow hanging over us, where we distrust and dislike the EU and this is a view held by a lot of people. When is the next referendum to leave? Or the next GE.

If it is felt that the EU is to blame for our economic woes, then sentiment to leave with grow not diminish. Rejoining the EU will not be viewed as a way to 'save us' they will be viewed as our 'masters' which is exactly what the Leave campaign fed into.

Essentially, we have proven that as a nation we do not have a shared vision and heart for cooperative politics over and over again - and that's what it boils down to. We have never had a heart for Europe. Our minds are too separatist and inward looking to past glories that really never were, because of the way history has been taught to us in a rather arrogant manner, feeling superior rather than viewing our neighbours as equal partners. The referendum was a rejection of globalisation and a triumph of isolationism.

Unlike Greece. For all that they have been through and all that they have been shafted, they have looked to Europe with favour and with enough respect to view not only being part of the EU as a good thing, but followed that up with going for the Euro. It does show a completely different underlying set of beliefs, whether or not they still exist or not. It shows the mentality is different and perhaps can be changed.

Ours can't until we have learnt that the world is a big place and we are just a small part of that.

De Gaul blocked our entry into the EU, because he said we would be a pain in the arse in it. We have been difficult at every single turn and have been hostile to it. Now we show we do not believe in the shared ideals once again.

Europe don't want to give up on us I'm sure. The truth is, that we didn't give up on them. We just never believed wholeheartedly in the first place.

The reality is, that even there is a significant number of people who do believe in the EU, its not enough. Until our politics and media are not dominated by polarised opinions on Europe, all we are is a disruptive and difficult force that obstructs and risks its future.

We will get time before we hit the button, simply because of the belief in democracy and frankly they can see we are not in a state to be able to do that.

The Conservatives are now quietly trying to close the doors on all our escape routes on this - remember history belongs to the victors (as does the media in this particular case as many of you are noticing). The reason is, they fear UKIP if they don't. No early GE. No second referendum.

The opposition to that needed to come swifter and stronger challenging the legitimacy and clear mandate of the percentages. It never did. If we want to talk about Farage and what would have happened if Remain had won. That challenge would have happened and it would have happened clearly and immediately and strongly. We have had no leadership on that, because we don't actually any opposition at the moment. Indeed Corbyn immediately said, 'that's it'. Which is part of the reason the rest of the labour MPs are up in arms about it, and felt that his heart was never for Remaining in the first place.

So that particular horse has bolted.

All this drawing of red lines about immigration are particularly unhelpful. Especially when we are likely to have an increase in emigration over the next few years... And that's what I worry about now. There is no solution and no compromise with the EU to be made here and no one is facing up to that. This is what we need though.

What options are we left with, and what hope do we have left? Honestly? Not a great deal at all.

I do think the French Election thing is a big deal as to how we eventually are treated and how favourably. But that's totally out of our control.

As are most other options here.

In fact I think that our future is now best summed as the wheel of fortune gameshow, where the only thing we can do is decide which moment to press the button whilst the wheel of fortune turns and hope for the best that we get the jackpot rather than no money at all.

Sorry to be all doom and gloom but I think that's where we are now.

OP posts:
GoudyStout · 29/06/2016 09:24

SNP as the Official Opposition would be a double edged sword - they're young and supporters of staying within the EU, but on the other the other hand many are very inexperienced - only a handful have been at Westminster prior to 2015.

Alisvolatpropiis · 29/06/2016 09:33

Doom laden but I think right on the money, Red.

DoinItFine · 29/06/2016 09:34

Yes, I totally agree, Red.

From the guardian:

Juncker added that if a Brexit leader were to take over as prime minister, they should be obliged to trigger article 50 the following day.

He obviously can't enforce this, but it does seem to be skating pretty close to interference in national politics.

Something to which we know he is not adverse.

It could be seen as a warning to the Tories to elect May over Boris if they want the current level of patience to endure.

I suppose there is a logic - if your leader campaigned to leave, then you must leave immediately.

If your leader wanted to stay, then we can give them more time to figure the way out.

I also loved the "we never even considered that article 50 wouldn't be invoked" (on the record) from Merkel Grin

ChardonnayKnickertonSmythe · 29/06/2016 09:36

Maybe she should consider it.

And I would be surprised if she hasn't.

DoinItFine · 29/06/2016 09:39

True, Goudy, plus there is a serious legitimacy problem.

But it is so unacceptable that we have no opposition to speak of right now.

Even a small number of young, inexperienced, Scotland-derived politiciansis better than nothing at all.

Which is what Corbyn is offering.

I think Red is dead right, though.

The time for effective opposition was on Friday, and we got immediate acquiescence.

DoinItFine · 29/06/2016 09:41

Of course she has considered it.

It was discussed last night.

Just not on the record.

Briefing on what you "didn't discuss" is always interesting.

PlatoTheGreat · 29/06/2016 09:53

De Gaulle blocked our entry into the EU, because he said we would be a pain in the arse in it. We have been difficult at every single turn and have been hostile to it. Now we show we do not believe in the shared ideals once again.

YY which is the reason why I've always thought that having a referendum in the first place was a crazy idea.
And why I think that, in some ways, the U.K. Is better out of the EU (I can't see the UK changing its views on the EU so it would have been a source of contention again and again anyway).
Seeing that DC has decided that it will still put pressure on the EU to get free trade AND immigration control, I suspect this will mean no Norvegian system either. (Norway thinks it's a crap deal btw....)

PlatoTheGreat · 29/06/2016 09:56

Doin I'm not sure it's interference. It sounds like a very logical comment to me.
Anyone, incl half of the population that voted to be out of the EU, would expect a PM who was also a campaigner to Leave such as Boris to trigger the Article 50 immediately. Surely that's what he has been campaigning about? So why any hesitation?

PlatoTheGreat · 29/06/2016 09:58

Not being experienced at Webminster doesn't mean that they will crap at it though.
At least they have a voice and they believe in what they are saying.
Much better than any other politician I have listened to.

RedToothBrush · 29/06/2016 09:58

Any hope?
Scotland and NI.

For example, our banking could head north. Still in the EU and this could work for the EU regulators - you passport through Edinburgh not London. Still in the UK. Just not England.
That might be good for easing some of London's problems and injecting money into Scottish coffers.
It would be a massive decentralisation for the UK. (Remember there were some plans drawn up for moving things in the event of Scotland going independent).

Your red line is still freedom of movement though.

Unless, Nicola Sturgeon pulls a blinder on that one.
Though she will have the support of NI on that one too.

However you look at it we HAVE to accept freedom of movement.

Ironically, our emigration figures next year will be high as people move if the value of the pound stays low, intolerance rises, uncertainty in business creeps in and active poaching of talent is done.

This will make leaving the EU look good (even though there are lots of bad things hidden in this scenario). Obviously leaving the EU has its benefits Hmm

OP posts:
ChardonnayKnickertonSmythe · 29/06/2016 10:03

I agree that whatever we do, we have to do it quickly. that boil is not going to get better.

Call a GE? Press the red button? Choose the least poisonous option but quickly.

I do think Nicola Sturgeon is pushing the wrong way. She could press for GE and a new Ref on EU, and if that works she can get a much better deal in EU later.
It does seem counter productive at first, but it might work.

noblegiraffe · 29/06/2016 10:05

The references to Farage and the second referendum are to counter the pious smug Leavers who have been posting 'gosh, look at how the Remainers are refusing to accept democracy, it's so uncouth. If Remain had won, the Leavers would simply have shook your hand, said "jolly good show" and got on with it'

Farage's pre-election comment just makes horseshit of that.

Room101isWhereIUsedToLive · 29/06/2016 10:12

I have a theory about labour. The reason they are doing all this is so that if there is a general election they won't be seen as a strong alternative. The exit from the EU is something that they definitely don't want to be in charge of so by being seen to be in chaos they will avoid the possibility of being elected and therefore won't be associated with whatever happens.

noblegiraffe · 29/06/2016 10:15

I think Labour leapt on Corbyn because Labour don't want Brexit and Corbyn very vocally does. Right now. I think it was a knee jerk reaction.

EdieParfitt · 29/06/2016 10:16

The opposition to that needed to come swifter and stronger challenging the legitimacy and clear mandate of the percentages. It never did

Exactly! All we got was 'the people have spoken' 'this is democracy'. Hillary Benn said we must accept it and then kicked off the latest trouble in the Labour Party but isn't standing for Leader (do we know why?).

In his blog, Alistair Campbell writes ' At the least, the Electoral Commission and the body for Standards in Public Life must be looking at the claims made, and the retraction of them immediately after winning'

Has he initiated this because I'm sure he'd be better at it than me.

Gah! We've turned into a nation of donkeys led by donkeys!