Has Boris been outmanoevered? Will someone please tell me who is in charge?

[RedToothBrush]

Thread two from

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/eu_referendum_2016_/2670552-Has-Boris-been-outmanoeuvred?pg=1

You can see from the polls that remain were fairly consistently in the lead the whole way, you can see the leave surge that I mentioned. It was close at the end but remember the pound went up on polling day which people thought meant business exit polls had called it for remain - Farage conceded defeat even.

Deciding a tactical vote for Remain because you thought Leave already had it in the bag and a Remain vote for Scotland would prompt indyref2 would have been very foolish based on those polls.

I'm not sure GingerIvy... I think I've reached the limits of my limited knowledge! (maybe because he's so far left, though?!)

I'm not keen on Angela Eagle either. I was not impressed with her in the debates, she sounded flat to me.

God I'm such a buzzkill. I don't hate everyone, I swear.

Tom Watson is hideous, but I think he has no appetite for actual leadership. I hope.

George Monbiot in the Grauniad: Let's sack the electorate

Ha.

(Going back to catch up on thread. Big shout out to Red for great coverage of EP debate today.)

I remember reading this thread about Scots angsting about tactical voting

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/scotsnet/a2656397-How-are-the-other-No-voters-voting-in-the-EU-referendum#61566076

I think Angela Eagle is a committed decent (not in Farage-speak "decent") person but doesn't have IT - that intangible charisma to get people to follow.

Ken Clarke on Sky news... I've disliked most of the "old guard" (Tebbit and co.) popping up and embarrassing themselves with their "when we were great" speeches but Ken was a hoot.

In his view Johnson is shocked to have actually won, having used the campaign as a bit of career opportunism. KC completely shot down the Johnson supporter on, who was saying what's the fuss, how easy it will be to negotiate trade deals in say, six months with a withering put down that given he was the only one at the table who'd actually negotiated one, he could tell her that was wrong....

Swedish that thread just shows that no one could decide what a tactical vote was because the polls were too close! They all seemed to be voting with what they actually believed.

How can NS be having talks with the EU re Scotland, if at present they are part of the UK and there is a ban on talking negotiations at all with the UK. I would have thought they could not do so until Scotland was no longer part of the UK. confused Different rules for Scotland and the rest of the UK??

Why shouldn't they? There's no legal requirement to avoid informal negotiations before Article 50. It's entirely up to the EU who they want or don't want to talk to before the official leaving process has begun. The always incredibly well informed and highly respected Brussels correspondent for German TV channel ARD thinks Scotland will get a very warm welcome and a fast-track EU membership if that's what it wants.

Well, it's not scientific, I know noble . But they're Nos - Yeses would have less to angst about if voting tactically.

Juncker stated he had placed a ban on any negotiations (formal or informal - he specified that) before A50. It was stated on television this morning during his speech.

When I posted that polling data, I was looking so wistfully at the final poll result 48 remain 46 leave.

I can't believe media lead is all about Labour yet again when the Tory party has surely got a fault line down it that splits it forever? Anna Sourby (cabinet minister) at the Pro-EU rally. Hunt saying no exit and second referendum. Cabinet of mixed Remain and Leavers still supposed to be functioning? How's that going then?

Labour: I understand the feeling against him, but without someone credible against him leave him be. And all those MPs against him are going to get have backlash IMHO when labour members in their own constituencies who support JC won't support them at next election for their betrayal.
Up thread Jazzy made a great point that Labour complaining all these young new Corbynites party members not taking part in leafleting/phone lobbying/door stepping instead are active on social media. Well to me, it's pretty amazing that the Geography teacher JC is a) connecting with young people unlike any proposed Tory leader likely to and b) are using modern media to do it, I wouldn't form my view by being door stopped I'm afraid....
I do get the "JC is only preaching to the converted" argument, but I can't understand this argument, "he can't connect with electorate can't possibly win oh yes he gets in loads of new labour members but hey, that's different....." maybe people see him as the anti dote to spin and slickness and lack of integrity.
For me, I need to see more on his policy and u get sweet FA on that thru the media
swedish summed up Angela Eagle perfectly, lovely woman but no way would she get embraced by media or have the "slick" approach that PLP seemed to be dreaming of. They had that with Blair, Liberal had that with
Clegg, I think a lot of electorate are rejecting media savvy candidates while PLP seem to be desperate for one. Don't they realise first bacon butty pic and they're Millibanded again?

Most of all I agree with person who said, I hate we're having to discussing Labour because they have squandered this golden opportunity to give party in power a serious hauling over the coals over this shitstorm

GingerIvy I had assumed NS is wanting to clarify process/options for
Scotland if they elect to seperate and stay in EU before Uk exit (as I think the view earlier in week was that they'd need to apply as a new nation, meet 35 conditions etc etc whereas SNP would obv rather just default stay in)
So not negotiations as such but clarifying options within EU constitution...

Junker may have placed an embargo on informal negotiations, but that doesn't mean that everyone will do as he says. It's pretty easy to draw some one into an informal chat. And even if informal chats aren't binding, they are very useful. Our leaders and representatives are incompetent idiots if they aren't doing everything they can to build rapport and sound out power brokers within the EU.

Oh great..
SNP Parliamentary leader Angus Robertson may claim at PMQs tmrw he should be deemed Leader of Opposition as has 56 MPs behind him; Corbyn 40

(From c4 Michael Crick)

Good lord. It's utter chaos.

My concern is will any informal negotiations Scotland does on their own ultimately undermine the negotiations for the UK as a whole?

Wednesday's Morning Star: Silenced - Tories shut TUC out of Brexit talks

Pro-EU rally calls for 'no more lies'
Posted at
21:31
from BBC live feed

This is interesting, coming from Remain... the campaign headed by Cameron and Osborne.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but the embargo on negotiations is on discussion of the terms of a possible deal for the UK before Article 50 is invoked. Discussions on Scotland remaining in the EU do not require Article 50 to be invoked, though clearly were the UK to decide not to invoke Art 50 and Scotland was to remain part of the UK, they would not be necessary.

I fully admit that when I was looking at Remain or Leave, I had to literally distance from anyone attached politically to the campaigns, so it didn't affect my choices.

This raised a smile in our household:

Ginger

They'll be talking about the Leave campaign lies, I'd imagine. As not much said by the Remain campaign appears to have been a lie thus far - markets, pound tanking and so on, that's happening.

Alis I know they're talking about Leave campaign lies. Cameron, Osborne, the current government, the previous government... they've never lied?

Meh. I think the petitions and gatherings are constant now. There's one for everything.

I agree Obi been active on social media probably has more impact now than going door to door.
And I wouldn't expect these eoppeople to be voting for the MP who are 'against' JC if this is the guy they support.
One big issue IMO is that what they are actually saying is that they want to see some proper left wing ideas when none of the said MP seem to be that keen with that.