Has Boris been outmanoevered? Will someone please tell me who is in charge?

[RedToothBrush]

Thread two from

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/eu_referendum_2016_/2670552-Has-Boris-been-outmanoeuvred?pg=1

Not sure what authority a Belgian ex prime minister has to make that claim. Everyone is making claims all over the place and many of them are highly unlikely to be accurate. That's one of the things that is really making me anxious about this whole thing.

If a young, enthusiastic, charismatic person made the same arguments, then we'd have something going.

But how sad is that, that the message is the same, but the packaging is different thus more acceptable?

Thegirl Yes, it seems everyone has an opinion - regardless of how well informed it is. It just confuses the issue and causes problems.

Hope you don't mind me marking my place, you all seem to know what you're actually talking about which actually makes me feel a bit better.

There was talk/fear of some Scots voting Leave in order to trigger another referendum, since EU membership was a strong argument in the Scottish Referendum. We'll never know if that was so - but the answer was a decisive remain in Scotland.

They're v pro-European. As am I. Only I'm in England....I'm jealous because they have Nicola Sturgeon, who seems to be the only one with any sort of plan.

But how sad is that, that the message is the same, but the packaging is different thus more acceptable

But it's always been this, all the way back to when Aristotle was teaching rhetoric. Leadership is incredibly important - being able to impart those ideas in a way that excites and inspires people; to convince; to bring together to follow you.

NEW: @angelaeagle to challenge Jeremy Corbyn if he does not resign. Most likely to happen tomorrow

I think l what I'd really like to see him to do is to throw his support behind someone like Osamor. She was a backer of Corbyn and is IMO much more 'electable'. I'm not voting for a blairite though, I believe an effective opposition needs to oppose and I also think it is important for voters to be offered a choice at elections with substantive, tangible differences between the parties. Winning elections is nice but when your main parties all move to the centre and occupy the same ground in an effort to win over the other sides' voters then people start turning to the fringes looking for something that isn't just more of the same. There's no bloody point in a Labour Party that doesn't appeal to actual labour voters (as we learned to our cost in Scotland).

Every US election since Kennedy v Nixon has been won by the younger more youthful looking candidate.

It is no coincidence that this has been due to the start of television debates.

I think the Labour party have let themselves down terribly.

It doesn't matter if he has all the legitimacy in the world, at this point what matters is Labour's ability to effectively oppose the Tory.

I agree wholeheartedly with this. The mere fact that we're all discussing the Labour party infighting on a thread about the Tory party's infighting is testament to that.

The labour party should have STFU and let JC do his job - which was to shine the spotlight on the shambles that is the Government at the moment. But this petty infighting has just diverted the spotlight to themselves and precisely the wrong time.

GingerIvy, yes, maybe it's sad, and maybe it's not the way it should be, maybe it should all be about the arguments and not about the personalities. But it's the way it is, and Labour can't afford to indulge in the moral high ground right now.

I think there was concern that Jeremy, instead of saying 'what a shitshow' and taking Johnson and Gove to task for their lies instantly piped up with 'well let's get this Brexit show on the road, what are you waiting for?'

This is 'shut the fuck up Jeremy, we don't want Brexit, give us all a chance to weasel our way out of it please'

I get it, but I don't agree with it. I do feel Labour is at fault for not supporting him to begin with. The fact that they didn't, when he was voted in, shows how much they really are detached from the people that voted him in to begin with. A huge symptom of the problem, and they utterly didn't get it. If they had, we wouldn't be dealing with this now.

I have to admit I didn't think Corbyn had such big balls. However, I think he needs to go.
Anything seems possible at the mo, so, for instance, if there is a GE, could whomever forms the new government not invoke article 50, thus staying in the EU?

The fact that they didn't, when he was voted in, shows how much they really are detached from the people that voted him in to begin with.

But are the people who voted him in the Labour electorate? They're the membership, which is very different, and there's an argument that it's all those new members who signed up just to elect him who are disconnected with the electorate. And the Labour MPs actually represent millions of Labour voters.

I can't see the EU standing for that. We've told them we're leaving, I think as far as they are concerned they will expect us to do so.

Labour MP Graham Allen says Tuesday's no confidence vote in Jeremy Corbyn has "no basis in law or the party's rules", likening it on Sky News "to a testing of the water as if we didn't know what the temperature was".

He says the party now needs to decide if there is going to be a formal leadership contest and he says that "after looking at the rules" - over which there is some disagreement - he believes that Jeremy Corbyn will automatically be allowed to stand again.

There is a risk that the Labour leader could win again and the only way this can be avoided, he adds, is if other candidates get out into the country and make their case convincingly to Labour activists.

Sorry - that's from BBC live feed

Is Nicola Sturgeon on MN?

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jun/28/nicola-sturgeon-unity-scotland-uk-government-get-grip-brexit-eu-referendum

Chalala Maybe I've misunderstood, but wasn't he voted in by the members? I'm wondering why he has tons of support from members, but not the MPs.

I agree with that to a certain extent Ginger - but it also needs to be allowed that he did have support within the PLP and the shadow cabinet, which he seems to have alienated pretty effectively.

I will never be able to forgive him for his behaviour during the referendum - the lukewarm campaigning, the briefing against the Remain campaign and making fighting the Tories a bigger priority than fighting Vote Leave. This was the biggest issue facing the country in a generation. And look where it's landed us. And I'm not so sure why everyone is congratulating him for 2/3 of Labour voters voting in - that's a third of people who voted Leave in a voter base that doesn't have the history the Tories do. It has exposed some ugly truths about this country and the alienation of a good chunk of the electorate - but Corbyn was no more able to reach them than Cameron.

And the youth turnout was poor. Where was Momentum? If more had voted Remain, or voted at all, we wouldn't be in this mess.

As long as he is leader, I won't be able to vote Labour.

How can NS be having talks with the EU re Scotland, if at present they are part of the UK and there is a ban on talking negotiations at all with the UK. I would have thought they could not do so until Scotland was no longer part of the UK. Different rules for Scotland and the rest of the UK??

When. Sorry, that got a bit ragey.

Is Nicola Sturgeon on MN? to be honest, she doesn't need us to tell us what a shit storm this is.

She has consistently been the only one to show any leadership over the past week.

Could we have a SNP / Labour coalition with Nicola as PM? I'd vote for that. Trouble is, she's so hellbent on independence that she probably wouldn't want it!

Sorry to dash the hopes of any David Miliband fans - I saw an article in the Guardian showing he's up for a top job in the US government if Hilary wins. Of course, we could get him back if there's a victory for Trump!