Has Boris been outmanoevered? Will someone please tell me who is in charge?

[RedToothBrush]

Thread two from

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/eu_referendum_2016_/2670552-Has-Boris-been-outmanoeuvred?pg=1

Especially the 'oh fuck, someone help me' look at 30 seconds.

So I suppose we'll be getting some type of update tonight after the dinner summit that Cameron is attending?

It's hard to pick from such a loathsome bunch.

Maybe May for me too, because she's a serious politician, albeit one I disagree with on many things.

There is no reason why the EU shouldn't reach out to Scotland. This shit show has been imposed on them against the will of their people.

English Brexit should not be allowed to bring another country down.

I have to admit, I'm not impressed with how the Labour group have done this. They seem to have planned this for maximum media attention, which means they've done a really good job of trying to humiliate Corbyn, which of course won't go over well with him or his followers, and serves to show Labour as a nasty backstabbing party with no unity (or common sense). They've been gunning for Corbyn since day 1. They don't even attempt to act like adults.

Hah, Boris putting in a complaint about the whips whipping up support for May as he falls behind in the polls was a headline on the Daily Mail a couple of hours ago.

Now the complaint is a side note, saying that allies have made a complaint in an article headlined 'Boris Johnson on course for Tory leadership showdown with Theresa May as he racks up support from 100 MPs - but pledges no snap general election if he wins'

I wonder who at the Daily Mail got bollocked for the headline which made Boris look like a whiny sore loser before the contest has even properly begun.

I prefer May to Boris. She looks more likely to engage with the hard, serious, detailed work to come.

English Brexit should not be allowed to bring another country down.

But it was a UK wide vote and the government voted on having the referendum prior to presenting it to the public. Why didn't Scotland bring up these possibilities and look for ways to deter it? Surely it occurred to them that if most of the rest of the UK voted out, as part of the UK, they'd go out too. Shouldn't all of these possibilities been discussed and planned for? It kind of looks to me that as they didn't expect Leave to win, they didn't really consider that possibility.

Morning:
Boris Johnson visits Lynton Crosby
Afternoon:
Boris Johnson complains about dirty tricks

May is a serious politician, not a caricature. I'd take her over Nicky Morgan or Boris any day.

"Surely it occurred to them that if most of the rest of the UK voted out, as part of the UK, they'd go out too."

It was widely recognised before the ref that Scotland would have another bash at Indyref if the Brexiters won.

Perhaps you didn't notice.

I know, but it seems odd to say "look we're going to have a UK wide vote whether to stay or leave, and if it's leave, the whole UK will be leaving." Wouldn't you think at that point Scotland would have said "wait - this isn't good for us - we need to build something into the referendum that states if our vote in Scotland is overwhelmingly different from the whole majority, that we have XYZ options to discuss before the final decisions are made." Then it'd be in the referendum as a condition, so wouldn't that have protected their options more? Rather than desperately scrambling about now trying to sort it? Just asking, as I'm unclear why they wouldn't have demanded this type of protection be part of the referendum.

Ginger I think that is definitely the problem in a quasi-federal system like the UK but that isn't used to or constitutionally equipped to deal with issues that affect all four members in a way that respects a federalist settlement.

Eg in Australia for a constitutional referendum to pass it has to get a double majority - a national majority of voters but also a majority of voters in a majority of states.

Please be clear - I'm not bashing Scotland, I do understand how frustrated they are. I'm just baffled at how unorganised this whole thing seems to have been.

I would've expected that type of protection to be put in for NI and Wales as well.

'English Brexit should not be allowed to bring another country down.'

Poor old NI is the place that will really suffer.

Labour should poach Ken Clarke

When devolution was done it was always assumed that the EU would be present to that.

And yes it was utterly reckless to hold a referendum that didn't respect that.

It was imposed by Westminster when the whole point of devolution was to stop that from happening.

I just don't know how I feel about the whole Corbyn thing. I'm a Labour Party member and voted for him. I think he has pretty effectively opposed the government and held them to account and pushed back against the tories. I was disappointed by the Labour remain campaign though. I don't think we can really continue with a leader with so little support from MPs though. That being said if I'm offered a choice between Corbyn and someone like David Miliband then I'd vote for him again. I think we need new blood... I think Kate Osamor (DP?) would be fab!

That should have said sp? Not DP

In all seriousness I know she is a new MP but she is enthusiastic, speaks incredibly well and with passion. She's also involved in grassroots movements like Corbyn but without his old lefty geography teacher image.

Yes, I don't even think it's Corbyn's political positions and beliefs that are the main problem, it's his personal style. If a young, enthusiastic, charismatic person made the same arguments, then we'd have something going.

Is it not possible that some Scots voted Remain purely to increase the chances of another Ind ref so the size of their Remain vote is slightly misleading? Lots of tactical voting.

But then other may have tactically voted Leave in order to trigger an indyref2. It's hard to know. I'm sure there was tactical voting but lots of it would have cancelled each other out.

Is it not possible that some Scots voted Remain purely to increase the chances of another Ind ref

That would be extremely odd seeing as everyone thought Remain would win, and one of the reasons the Scots voted to stay in the union was to stay in the EU, therefore a Scot Remain vote would be expected.

I know a couple of Scottish people who toyed with voting out in the hope a second Indy ref would be triggered but in the end, they decided against doing so.