Has Boris been outmanoevered? Will someone please tell me who is in charge?

[RedToothBrush]

Thread two from

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/eu_referendum_2016_/2670552-Has-Boris-been-outmanoeuvred?pg=1

Joysmum, yes, we clearly mix in very different circles. Mine are French and German. Although it's not only a question of nationality, it's also a question of political sensibilities.

There's nothing inherently shocking in any way that the EU works. It's just how it's been painted over the years, by press eager to sell scare stories, and national governments all too eager to have a scapegoat (one that can't defend itself because - it's them!)

General consensus from that is that EI as a trade agreement only is the ideal. EU trying to integrate socially, politically and judicially is not. People are scared to leave but don't like the EU in its current form.

Either way a vote for remain for the majority was not a vote approving of the EU as it is now, just that current enmeshment beyond what many seem acceptable is both the problem and creates the fear of leaving. Double edged sword really

Very much so I think. That's what I get from European friends.
They hate parts of it as much as we do.

If we got our MEPs to stop being such dickwads though, we might actually have been able to make the difference in getting rid of the shit rather than just being obstructive over everything.

Meh. I think the point is now rather mute and redundant though now.

Juncker is a dick. Him and Farage weirdly seemed like kindred spirits today.

If the debate had been about asking why Europe are useless rather than just pointing the finger saying Europe are useless, we might never have got to this state in the first place. We had the balance of power as a country and could have tipped the direction of the EU different. Instead we have send agents to sabotage it, and ourselves because we are bloody morons.

Whose to blame?

Hello Daily Mail.

This will include 'British refugees' who wish to apply.

Refugees? Refugees? Surely not.
British going abroad are explorers, keen business people etc, not mere 'refugees', you know the ones that 'we' don't want in the UK because they are all poor and with no education

As an aside, I was talking to my 12yo who looked at me surprised when I pointed out to him that I am indeed an immigrant (from the EU).
'But, aren't all immigrants poor and uneducated? You can't be that!' was his answer. Now he is 12yo so I'll let off the hook but it does show what the society he has grown in thinks immigrants are.
This is not new. 20 years ago, similar ideas were floating around but, at the time, they were about 'asylum seekers' (with people unable to tell me the difference between asyluum seekers, immigrants, economic migrants or people coming from the EU)

This will include 'British refugees' who wish to apply.

The catch being that it will be British refugees who are EU nationals that will be head of the queue ...

Do you think Ministers in any government draft their own laws? Or ask their Civil Service for drafts?

I think that when ministers ask civil servants to draft their laws it is a lot like when Juncker asks his staff to draft laws for him.

Have you spent much time around EU commissioners?

They are nothing like heads of civil service departments.

For a start they are poltically appointed.

There's nothing inherently shocking in any way that the EU works.

Not so.

There is a huge democratic deficit at the heart of the EU, and the powers of the Commission are central to that.

I'm a staunch Remainer. But I will not tell lies about the EU.

It has huge problems, and the Commission and itit undemocratic corporatism is a massive one.

I've been laughing about parliament and its lack of influence, but it's actually quite a serious matter.

Exactly. And my point was that its NOT therefore a display of prejudice to want to control migration across a border and so I dont see why those who argue for Brexit are labelled in this way, since the EU operates the same policy principle, just for a different border.
You cant have worldwide uncontrolled migration, full stop but you need to address the cause of the desire on the part of the migrant.
So I think people reach different solutions to a problem depending on the context in which they view them - I for one do not support any form of protectionism in a world with an imbalance of wealth that sees over 20,000 children die from poverty related causes every day.
And in that context the EU is a protectionist club that favours intra-member trade over non-members; this does nothing to address the world's poverty issues, although it serves very well the purpose or sustaining the wealth of its already (relatively) well off member nations.
I dont accept that the only way to preserve European peace is to preserve relative European wealth - I think truly global peace is best served by a long term plan to rebalance the worlds wealth. I'm just not sure the populations of the wealthy nations are sufficiently selfless to vote for it

Juncker is a dick. Him and Farage weirdly seemed like kindred spirits today

Yes they did

I thought well that's politics

sad way to think

.

If we got our MEPs to stop being such dickwads though, we might actually have been able to make the difference in getting rid of the shit rather than just being obstructive over everything.

We wouldn't. The MEPs can't do much for you.

The power is almost all with the Commission. And the Council.

Anyone know the implication of this?

its NOT therefore a display of prejudice to want to control migration across a border

correct.

and so I dont see why those who argue for Brexit are labelled in this way

Because quite a sizeable number weren't following the nuanced debate of migration, immigration, refugees, and asylum seekers. They just wanted to send brown people home, followed by people whose surnames end in a vowel. From what I heard anyway.

I used the word deliberately as we have repeatedly misappropriated use of words referring to movement of people in the last 4 months. This has been picked up by our neighbours.

www.thinkspain.com/news-spain/27666/british-refugees-welcome-in-spain-following-brexit

Madrid even put up a sign using the phrase.

We have been particular poor in our treatment of those who have come to this country and supported our economy and we have been dehumanising of those who genuinely refugees and of need of help not vilification.

I apologise if I use the phrase in that way, but the way we have used language over the movement of people issue has implications for us... I'm particularly angry over it as I know how much its affected friends and family. (I do try and be as measured as I can most of the time)

Anyway, my point is that part of the pain we are about to get, looks like its going to be a deliberate strategy to remove the best bits of our economy and spark a brain drain.

If that tweet is true, InShock, then if Boris is in charge we will not be able to retain free tradecwith the EU.

I should clarify as that reads incorrectly and badly, the Madrid sign is doctored - we wouldn't have a similar sign in the uk welcoming refugees though.

Cos we are tossers.

Red, thank you so much for that summary earlier. I can't bring myself to watch any live.

That's not good is it?

Boris is going to have to choose between placating the Tory right/UKIP on immigration, and getting access to the Single Market. He can't have both.

More tweets by the same guy:

Boris Telegraph y'day column was "written too quickly" and he's tired. Friends agree sloppy & sent mixed messages & will be vetted in future

Fwiw Boris wouldn't accept any inconsistency: he reaffirmed points system. The problem was the "ppl didn't vote against immigration" phrase

like its going to be a deliberate strategy to remove the best bits of our economy and spark a brain drain.

I did post yesterday to ask if anyone recalled that phrase from the 1970s ?

You know what the problem Johnson is rapidly developing is?

The more he says he will do this or that or the other in his new assumed imaginary role as the British President, the more he looses credibility and the more difficult it would be for him to negotiate for the UK's best interests.

Its the political equivalent of painting yourself into a corner.

I don't see how he can represent the best interests of the country if he keeps on doing it.

Well he has no interest in representing the best interests of the country, but he will even find it hard to represent his own best interests if he carries on with the bumbling fool thing.

You know what the problem Johnson is rapidly developing is?

He's not developing it. He's realising it.

Wherever he goes, 50% of the people don't want what he has to sell. Not 1 in 3, or 1 in 4. One in 2. He's not so much Churchill, as the Queen of Hearts right now ... which is where we all are ....

Red your use of the word 'refugee' was quite appropriate because that's exactely the way people in the UK are using the word.
The problem of course is that
1- they have never considered that if an EEA citizen can be a 'regugee' in Britain then so are they in an EU state
2- that said 'refugees' can be highly educated people that give a lot to the ciountry (which strangely British people always are when they are living abroad...)

Boris is just very good at saying whatever he thinks people want to hear. That's the journalist in him.
Whether he would actually do any of it or what he will actually do if he was PM remains to be seen.

Hmmm Corbyn appears to have run out of Scottish MPs to appoint for the position of shadow secretary of state for Scotland.

Lynton Crosby seems to have declared for Team Johnson.
Gove appears to be Johnson's right hand man in this.
As he was also at breakfast with Johnson and Crosby.