Has Boris been outmanoevered? Will someone please tell me who is in charge?

[RedToothBrush]

Thread two from

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/eu_referendum_2016_/2670552-Has-Boris-been-outmanoeuvred?pg=1

More English people voted remain than Scottish, I'm getting so frustrated that no one is representing the interests of English remainders, of which there are many millions.

The Scottish MEP for the SNP did. He held up a picture of the whole UK marking the people who voted remain. He said do not forget anyone who voted remain, BEFORE then stating the case for Scotland.

Jeremy Hunt's proposal of a second referendum scares me.

When it is explained to people that their new choice is EEA (just like the EU with much less power), or Leave, I have a bad feeling that they would say "fuck it" and choose Leave again.

nodding in furious agreement

His party doesn't have any power in the UK he shouldn't be any kind of mouthpiece for us.

His party does have power in the EU though, thanks to the English people who voted to send them off to the "undemocratic" EU.

He absolutely gets to be a mouthpiece for England in the EP. He is one of your representatives.

Today is far from the first time they have heard from him.

MEP stating very clearly the common goals of the EU again (which the UK has never bought into so yes I can see how this would not be well received. Of course you can then say it's 'their' fault and they are arrogant and removed from the reality. Or realise that it's the UK that is arrogant to thnk that all the other 27 countries should think like them...)

I think it's a fundamental misunderstanding by many British eurosceptics to believe that their objections are shared by the rest of Europe. Yes there is also euroscepticism on the continent, but it is often very different in its nature and aims.

It's not that Britain is not being listened to, it's always been very clear what its position is. It's that the majority of other EU countries profoundly disagrees.

Ugh, it's so embarrassing to watch. We've got to reach some kind of agreement with these people. Although I will concede Juncker is quite the arse as well. I wish he'd step down and that nice, more understanding Tusk chap could take over.

Let's take control back. In a perfect world, we'd confiscate Farage's passport indefinitely and confine him to the city limits of the coldest, wettest area that voted to leave. Definitely not sending you to Cornwall Nigel, you'd like it too much! Somewhere utterly bleak and miserable.

The UK has 73 MEP:
Eastern - 7, East Midlands - 5, London - 8, North East - 3, North West - 8, South East - 10, South West - 6, West Midlands - 7, Yorkshire and Humber - 6, Wales - 4, Scotland - 6, Northern Ireland - 3.

Just done a quite count so this might be wrong:
20 Conservative
1 DUP
3 Green
20 Labour
1 Liberal Democrat
1 Plaid
2 SNP
1 Sinn Fein
1 UUP
22 UKIP

I can't work out why we aren't getting a great deal out of Europe...

Fair play to the SNP rep toothbrush but his priority, rightly, is Scotland. I'm thinking, in particular about e.g. Sadiq Khan who has over two million remain voting Londoners looking at him, he's talking about more powers but those powers are fuck all use if we leave the single market, he needs to be galvanising support for that and pushing it, maybe he's doing it super quietly...

But you see, the EU has always been seen as a waste of time. no thing has ever been done about the European elections or to do a campaign about what we wanted to support/defend at the level of the EU. It has always been seen as a political game between the head of state (so work for the PM only).

And then you wonder why people like UKIP have done well....

(I have to wonder what the heck he based his campaign to be elected as an MEP on though)

It's always been a bone of contention with me that we send eurosceptics (put mildly) as MEPs. The claim is that European Parliament is a jok, but what do you expect if you send joke candidates as joke MEPs?

"Gentlemen. I can only hope the enemy trembles as much when they read these names as I do."

They're all awful. I'm glad I don't get a vote in it. I'm hard pressed to say which of them I hate most. Probably Jeremy McCuntface though, if I'm honest.

It would be great to have a GE fought by two party leaders called Jeremy, though. I wonder how many of the voters would get confused between them and say afterwards, 'Oh, I didn't know that's who I was voting for...'

The EU has been promoted to the British public as what by whom....

Oh bugger.

What was everyone googling on Friday again?

Oh bugger.

We did not get affected by WWII in the same way as the rest of Europe was. Our national psyche and the way history is taught in a nationalist way and is if the UK won the war single handed, as a friend of a friend pointed out over the weekend on FB.

We are not taught to think critically about our role in the world and the negative consequences we have had.

It is a uniquely British feature and is not shared by our European neighbours.

So when David Cameron stood up and made the case about peace, it was sweep away as nonsense and doomongering. Ireland and NI were ignored as frankly irrelevant. It was said that NATO and the UN do all that stuff. Yet the EU has done much to keep nationalism in check - without a military force. We dismissed this, as our belief is essentially that military power is more important.

War is something that happened a long time ago to people far away. It didn't happen in our towns and streets in the same way. Whilst we were bombed we did not experience occupation.

Why do you think Putin smiles at nationalism?

YY red

Arrogance is the word that comes to mind TBH.

@ Doin
re your answer to my post about 2/3 pages back....(sorry i cant keep up with the pace while trying to work as well!!)
If the migration is "illegal" then clearly that shows by definition that the EU also dont believe in "uncontrolled migration" either.
Nobody does, and so in principle thats the same view, just with different borders. It doesn't make the EU racist or prejudiced that they want to control migration from outside the EU.

Why do you think Boris has been challenging bloody Churchill so much lately.

It all pisses me off.

I would be surprised if it is not Boris who becomes PM

as much as the tory party might be fighting now they will pull together and vote in the PM they think will have the biggest appeal to the voter and Boris is incredibly popular

The next GE is not until 2020 so four years for resentment to settle down and the public to move on from this now and who knows things might be ok and if they are he will win unless Labour have a very strong leader (obviously not Jeremy)

Red

YES to all of that. Yes yes yes.

Brexit Great News for EU

Joris Luyendijk in the guardian.

I don't think he will be alone in this view.

Although I will concede Juncker is quite the arse as well. I wish he'd step down and that nice, more understanding Tusk chap could take over.

Right.

There is no single person "in charge" in the EU, as the EU is not a single entity. It's 28 states who have set up ways to cooperate.

You can also say that Tusk is in charge. He's the President of the European Council - the political body.

Juncker is the President of the European Commission - the Civil Service. His role is to make proposals, find ways to make them something that all 28 governmentts will sign up to, and, once those governments have signed up to it and made it law, enforce it.

Juncker has been vilified by the UK press as if it was him vs Cameron, in that package deal in February. It never was. It was 28 countries finding common ground, and Juncker being the guy passing drafts around until one of them was acceptable to all 28.

This will be his role in the Brexit negotiations too.

Of course the EU don't believe in uncontrolled migration.

Have you not been following the migrant crisis in the Med?

The EU believes in free travel within its borders.

Something we have opted out of, but free movement of people is part of the EU.

There have been huge problems with this since the 2004 accession.

I think it was a mistake not to have given more to Cameron in February on this. The UK was far from alone in seeking brakes on immigration from far poorer ecomonies.

But Cameron is shit at Europe. You'd have needed a LibDem for that job.

The European Commission is not really like our civil service.

It has a huge amount of independent power that civil service departments do not have.

Juncker was very influential in Cameron's February negotiations. As was Merkel.

It wasn't just 27 heads if state all of equal importance.

I think it's a fundamental misunderstanding by many British eurosceptics to believe that their objections are shared by the rest of Europe

I guess you mix in different circles to me. DM born in one EU country, DH working here and in 2 others, extended family in another and grandparents in another.

General consensus from that is that EI as a trade agreement only is the ideal. EU trying to integrate socially, politically and judicially is not. People are scared to leave but don't like the EU in its current form.

Either way a vote for remain for the majority was not a vote approving of the EU as it is now, just that current enmeshment beyond what many seem acceptable is both the problem and creates the fear of leaving. Double edged sword really.

Juncker being the guy passing drafts around until one of them was acceptable to all 28.

Passing drafts around@! 😂😂

Drafts written by him!

And why are the young much more open to the idea of Europe?

Is it because they are stupid and haven't been done over by European politicians.

Or is it because they have grown up in a world where they understand globalisation (and the problems it poses) more than older people, simply down to their useage of things like the internet and gaming.

Certainly I suspect, they are much more likely to have friends they have never met in person who live in other countries to themselves than older people.

Its not just education. Its a totally different life experience. Improved education also improves critical thinking...

Apathy is in part a by product of frustration of this lack of critical thinking and representation....

ALL OF IT. JUST. PISSES. ME. OFF.

In other news, Berlin has said that intends to steal the UK's tech industry. This will include 'British refugees' who wish to apply.

Whoooppppiiiieeeeee!

Drafts written by him!

Well, yes.
Do you think Ministers in any government draft their own laws? Or ask their Civil Service for drafts?

As the referendum debate has shown, the country has not come to terms with its own global irrelevance
and
Markets are never neutral arrangements but always political constructs.

This guy is pro Europe isn't he?

Having said that, yes this is certainly the view of a lot of people in Europe (have you noticed that when British peole speak of Europe, Britian is never part of it? Not even when they go away on hols 'in Europe')