Has Boris been outmanoevered? Will someone please tell me who is in charge?

[RedToothBrush]

Thread two from

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/eu_referendum_2016_/2670552-Has-Boris-been-outmanoeuvred?pg=1

I think the longer we wait, the more restless the Leave people will be, as they will be pushing for a resolution. The longer we wait, the more the remain people will be pushing for another referendum "you're waiting, obviously you realise there are problems, take the time to vote again!" I just think it will keep peaking over and over again.

But we all have our opinions on how it'll progress. I guess we'll find out in a few months.

Afaik, these rules were brought in by Hague, it used to be just the Parliamentary party which chose the leader.

After the Thatcher-Major shift (who remembers Anthony Beaumont-Dark ?) the tories changed the rules to make it harder to oust the leader during parliament.

Really the 1980/90s Tory internal struggles were a foreshadowing of the complete disconnect that UK politics now enjoys with the electorate.

I've not had the privilege to live in other democracies, so this is merely a comment on how I see UK (English ?) politics, but it's so tribal. Which is now it's undoing, as you have people who really do vote for a rosette rather than a candidate. It would be OK, if being ignorant about politics actually led to a happier life. But in most cases it just leads to a ready pool of suckers who will happily return "their" candidate - even as they are being shafted.

I mentioned fairly early on while watching that I didn't think it was going to go over well in the UK.

Which bit?

The bit where Farage made a total cock of himself and the country he represents?

Or the bit wherevpoliticiand from other countries made speeches about a matter of importance to the EU?

How this "comes across in the UK" is a matter of pretty close to fuck all importance to everyone that spoke other than Farage, Dodds, the Scottish MEP, the Sinner, and possibly one German.

They have their own constituents to worry about.

Fox still being an MP is a stain on our democracy. That he is running for PM beggars belief.

Ginger why do you think the watching of their EU parliament won't go go down well in the UK?

Possible Tory Leaders:
Jeremy Hunt (hunt the cunt - leaver)
Liam Fox (second attempt at the leadership. has been key player calling for party unity - leaver)
Boris Johnson (megalomanic with a Churchill fixation - leaver)
Theresa May (Big Brother is watching you. Or deporting you - remainer)
Steven Crabb (homophobic evangelical Christian - remainer)
Andrea Leadsom (your mum - leaver)
Dominic Raab (apparently social media friendly - leaver)
Sajid Javid (he of Tata Steel crisis fame - remainer)
Nicky Morgan (going for the second woman in the hat ticket - remainer)
Michael Gove (doesn't like experts - leaver)
Jeremy Hunt (hunt the cunt - leaver)

Surely there's an appropriate Oscar Wilde quote here ? Something about the unspeakable in pursuit of the inedible ?

Or how about The Iron Duke on reading a list of the generals he had beneath him :

"Gentlemen. I can only hope the enemy trembles as much when they read these names as I do."

?

Has Boris claimed the Duke of Wellington as his own, yet ?

"Gentlemen. I can only hope the enemy trembles as much when they read these names as I do."

Love it!

How this "comes across in the UK" is a matter of pretty close to fuck all importance to everyone that spoke

Yep

What is the EU Parliament risking by "not coming across well"? Upsetting Britain and having it go off in a strop? Oh wait...

You have to remember that there's a wide variance of people watching it. A lot of people feel the EU isn't listening to the UK people, that the EU is far removed and arrogant and controlling. A bunch of EU reps are not going to change their mind, especially when they are saying negative things - and they'll hear Farage and Le Pen talk about Independence Day and great future and such, and that's ALL they'll hear.

Some will see the varied responses and be able to counter them or put them in perspective, but some that are very much in favour of the break from the EU are going to feel that this was a group "telling off" of the UK, especially when you count Farage's demeaner throughout. And that is not saying they are unintelligent, but that they have varying life experiences and priorities that will filter how they receive it.

Just my opinion, but I can see where some of that would aggravate a number of people watching. Very much "the EU still telling us what to do" if you see what I mean.

I have somewhat mixed feelings on it. I recognise their need to have the debate, but I struggle to see the purpose as a whole, but then it struck me as more of an attempt at an intervention than a debate. The fact that many said that the EU needed to change makes me wonder - why did they people just speak up so forcefully now?? Have they brought this us before? Why are they just recognising this openly now?

Jeremy Hunt is listed twice. Admit it, you just liked to put his name with that description afterwards.

Just watched the standing ovation for Alyn Smith.

I remain convinced that there is a deal here for Scotland.

Here's my criterion for deciding which Tory contender to despise least root for:

which of them is most likely to keep Britain in the EU/EEA, and least likely to go for the nuclear option of WTO/negotiate all trade deals from scratch?

I think it has to be a Leaver, otherwise it'll be civil war when they go back on the migration pledges. Which leaves me with - Jeremy Hunt, Dominic Raab, Boris Johnson.

Spoiled for choice!

Yup, it was our opportunity to keep the EU onside.

Scotland sent in Alyn Smith, who got a standing ovation for comments like "I want my country to be internationalist, cooperative, ecological, fair, European" and "colleagues, there is a lot of things to be negotiated. We will need cool heads and warm hearts".

England sent in Fucking Farage - "When I came here 17 years ago and said I wanted to lead a campaign to get Britain to leave the European Union you all laughed at me. Well I have to say you’re not laughing now are you?”

It was only ever going to be cringeworthy.

GingerIvy

Jeremy Hunt is listed twice. Admit it, you just liked to put his name with that description afterwards

There is a pleasing assonance . However that was actually a c'n'p fail. Unless my subconscious is up to tricks (again).

why did they people just speak up so forcefully now??

Because it was a debate about a country leaving the EU for the first time ever.

Have they brought this us before?

Yes

Why are they just recognising this openly now?

They're not.

There are loads of Eurosceptic MEPs.

England is far from the only country that uses European elections to conduct protest votes and sends politicians that are unelectable nationally to Europe.

I mentioned fairly early on while watching that I didn't think it was going to go over well in the UK.

There in lies something of a point.

YOU are not the audience they are talking to.

In the same way that Farage was not talking to them, and was talking to the British public, they were talking to their home audience too.

They know that the eyes of the whole of Europe would have been very much turned towards them today.

A lot of it will be almost pantomime and theatre. It is NOT a typical day, whether people say and think it is.

I think there is a lot to be said that they are not listening to the UK. However there is also now the point, that they don't have to. We have voted to leave remember.

Its not quite as straightforward and simple as just saying that they are anti-Uk. They are anti-uk in what context.

Its important to put it all into context.

As previous posters have mentioned, there are elections coming up in France and Germany soon....

Its relevant.

I find myself favouring Jeremy Hunt.

At least he is offering a vote based on what we are actually going to do now.

OK I see what you mean ginger
As an EEA national, what I saw was
1- MEP stating very clearly the common goals of the EU again (which the UK has never bought into so yes I can see how this would not be well received. Of course you can then say it's 'their' fault and they are arrogant and removed from the reality. Or realise that it's the UK that is arrogant to thnk that all the other 27 countries should think like them...)

2- some MEP stating that the EU needs some reform etc... Not a new issue at all, a real ongoing one that is at the heart of a to of the talks within the EU. Because basically there is always this pull between being united fully (politically, economically, money, army etc etc) and the pull to 'protect your independance as a country'.
What is amazing is that no one ever mentions that here and how the UK could have had a big influence on that if they had been happy to play the game (and accept the democratic process that says that if the majority sees more benefits to be united instead, then that's how it should go)

More English people voted remain than Scottish, I'm getting so frustrated that no one is representing the interests of English remainders, of which there are many millions.

Jeremy Hunt's proposal of a second referendum scares me.

When it is explained to people that their new choice is EEA (just like the EU with much less power), or Leave, I have a bad feeling that they would say "fuck it" and choose Leave again.

As much as it hurts me, I'm going with Boris Johnson. He's the only one who can double back on all the Leave promises in order to keep the UK in the Single Market, and not get eaten alive by the press.

I have no idea who to favour!

I'm wondering, what did the MEP supposed to do when listening to Farage exactely? How were they supposed to show they are indeed listening?
They were basically all showing their position regarding the Leave (and there was no doubt with any of them that the UK was OUT). Some thoughts it was a real shame and that Farage campaign had been a lie (which has been said numerous times in the press here).
Others said it was a wake up call for the EU (true)
And that it will open the door to more changes (incl other countries leaving?)

There was nothing to listen to in particular really as the UK had nothing to discuss......

Marking my place for later - these threads are my go-to for the best analysis and updates!

I don't support leaving the EU and joining the EEA.

If we're going to press the big red button, we might as well see how things shake down outside it.

I also don't think Hunt will be able to offer two options like that as a referendum.

I think we'll get a general election, which I want.

Yes me too thegirl. Fed up of this brexit narrative as if it was some landslide victory. It's fucking awful.
And why the fuck is Farage talking? If he was on MN I would be calling him a goady fuckers. I'm seriously embarrassed. His party doesn't have any power in the UK he shouldn't be any kind of mouthpiece for us. Where are the more moderate English MEPS?