Can anyone explain why the government and others are so desperate for us to stay?

[TwentyOneGuns]

I'm the first to admit that my knowledge of politics and economics is not great but it seems to me there must be more to it than we are being told. If they are getting so scared of a Leave vote that they have to threaten us with Emergency budgets etc what are they really worrying about? I just can't believe they have only the interests of the country at heart. What do they get out of it if we vote Remain?

Whoops!! Autocorrect fail there thickandthin:

'And hopefully moving up?!'

Who's going to make that happen - the Boris Johnson-led Tory government that replaces this one?

The rich men backing Leave are for fewer workers rights, a race to the bottom so we can compete with Chinese workers.

'That Guardian editor is deluded if he thinks no 1 on Bojo's and Farage's list post-Brexit is improving wages and working conditions for bus drivers and care home cleaners.'

Farage has got no chance of being in power. The system reviles him because he challenges it. Boris may not even become leader because everyone knows he is just in it for himself.

This is not about Boris, it is about democracy and the democratic control of the people over its own political class. There is bound to be an election soon because the system has been challenged so much by the people going against the advice of Cameron and his "experts".

Everything is likely to change if the people regain control of their democracy and the system will have difficulty getting TTIP through etc particularly if we get PR voting.

We have a democracy - putting aside the monarchy for now.

We elect our MPs, our local councillors, our mayors, our police commissioners and yes, you may have conveniently forgotten, our MEPs.

In 2011 we were given an opportunity to ditch FPTP - we didn't.

The Guardian told everyone to vote Lib Dem in 2010 and look how well that turned out.

We don't have to have a Tory government

Also there looks to be a close result and high turnout. People engaged
with politics is good for everyone unpopular legislation will fail them at the next election

The Tories do not have a huge majority laws have to be passed through them then the House of Lords they didn't get the tax credits cuts through

justbogoff maybe you should check the facts before just copying and pasting some rubbish put about by the Remain camp

Alistair Campbell on remain side - he doesn't seem to have read the memo about being less inflammatory.

Someone that is closely linked to lies whilst Blair was in government tweets today:

"The freedom Britain needs is freedom from a nasty Brexit Lie Machine run by tax dodgers and multi-millionaire liars fuelling anger and hate"

multi millionaire liars - does he include Mandelson, Blair, Kinnocks? You know those two who held high position in the EU and the one who wishes a presidency there? I wonder why he has no shame ?
mobile.twitter.com/campbellclaret/status/744108778161856512

Working class voters' concerns are not about to get taken seriously by Labour - they will never form another government unless they address treating their traditional voter as a bigot.

Thank you, all those who answered my question.

Working class voters' concerns are not about to get taken seriously by Labour

Thats because Nu-Labour and Tories wont just fess up and say they took all the tax they collected off immigrants and squandered it or used it on giving rich people tax breaks instead of improving services on the back of tax receipts.

Both the Tories and labour are in cahoots to maintain the status quo. They love the power and for a long time the electorate have given them the benefit of the doubt and carried on with the status quo.

Now people are angry with their political leaders as for most of the electorate, including the normally comfortable middle classes, life is not rosy:
wage freezes, insecure employment with worsening terms and conditions, high rents/ house prices, failing health service, pension robbery by billionaires, scramble for of school places, lack of social housing, tuition fees and debt.

The electorate are wondering how things have got to this state. Both the UK government and the EU have been involved in this mismanagement and the people will hold them to account in this referendum

Excellent post Turbinaria.

A general election is where we hold bad government to account by voting it out.

A referendum doesn't hold politicians to account, it creates consequences for all citizens which will hold for a generation or more.

If you don't like bad government, then use your vote at the general election and the European elections to choose better politicians and better policies.

BeakyMinder

A general election has consequences for lots of people as well, our current government has been voted in by a only a third of the population that voted and considerably less than a third of the total population.

I think it was BreakingDad77 that posted that he lived in a conservative strong hold and as such his vote had little influence. (apologies if I have the wrong poster or party)

Turbinaria please can you explain the EU's contribution to the list of issues you cite:

^"wage freezes, insecure employment with worsening terms and conditions, high rents/ house prices, failing health service, pension robbery by billionaires, scramble for of school places, lack of social housing, tuition fees and debt.

"The electorate are wondering how things have got to this state. Both the UK government and the EU have been involved in this mismanagement"^

These issues appear to be 100% the product of UK democracy as the laws and policies concerned lie solely within British governance, no?

Claig, your posts are excellent.

The aim of the EU was always to be more than a trading bloc but it was sold to us as a convenient way to trade without tariffs. However, it is now conducting itself like a government and handing down laws to us. The establishment of EU was always about globalisation, power, control. That is why the powerful multinationals and individual billionaires are driving through supranational global governance and that is why many ordinary people are against it. The EU is a billionaire’s wet dream.

Centralised control above the heads of sovereign nations is the name of the game. Merkel did not ask the German people, she had no choice. She will probably be toppled because of it but the globalisation process, TTIP and all the rest will still steamroller on without seeking public approval. TTIP is hungry for our NHS.

Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orban has said, “the ultimate aim is to weaken Europe and change its way of life, to weaken independent sovereign nations and make them part of a supranational union. National identity and independence needs to be weakened for that and divide and rule is a part of the destabilisation process."

Orban accused billionaire George Soros of being a prominent member of a circle of "activists" trying to undermine European nations by supporting refugees heading to the continent from the Middle East and beyond. Orban is trying to defy the plan. Remember, the plan is not to bring the standard of living in less developed EU countries up to our level, but to bring ours down to meet theirs coming up.

Goldman Sachs personnel are permanently embedded as Advisors at the White House and have been for several administrations. Why only GS, are there no other financial institutions? GS is a big player in keeping the EU operation going; that’s why Obama tried to put the frighteners on us on his last visit. He is doing the bidding of his real paymasters.

I agree with claig about Farage being a political outsider, and of course the messenger is always reviled. All three of our political parties are pro-EU because when some of them are not re-elected, that’s where you go for your next job. It's their own job centre.

Is it Cameron who is calling for kinder politics.
Does anyone agree with me that Amber Rudd's TV performance against Boris J. was cruel and unprofessional?

She even said something along the lines that it was not safe for a woman to be given a lift by Johnson. This is personal attack and slander.

God what a load of gibberish I've sat through reading on this thread. Just the same old tripe about democracy that was spouted over the Scottish referendum. All the gripes and perceived injustices are 100% domestic policy and nothing to do with the EU, the whole point of that much circulated list of Remain v Leave was to highlight the calibre of crap who are leading the Leave camp - and, by the way, the UK's exit of the EU if this country loses its marbles on Thursday. l also use the term 'leader' in the loosest sense. Bloody hell, there are zero politicians I'd trust to lead the country out of the EU! That alone is enough to give me fear!

All I have seen over the last 30 years is a country getting richer and better off as a result of its membership with the EU. My part of the UK at the start of the 90s when I moved back was a total dump. Funnily enough, when I look at the maps of who supports what it is the wealthiest parts getting up in arms over nothing, while the poorer ones all see the benefits. Because you know, there's the whole ethos of supporting those less better off than yourselves to make improvements for all...

Maybe that's why people are so 'desperate' to stay? We remember how dreadful it was before and that leaving is such a massive unknown which pretty much all parties know they cannot handle. Cameron only called this as an election pledge, just as he did the ridiculous Scottish referendum. Poorly thought through and with zero substance.

The ethos and spirit of the EU is what makes me a firm Remain (vote already cast), and always will be. Couldn't care less about the politicians who come and go. It's a no brainer - why would you isolate yourself from your nearest trading partners? I simply don't get it.

'Claig, your posts are excellent.'

Thanks, DIana. I am usually pounced upon for imparting common sense. I am gobsmacked to see a common sense appraisal by someone who is obviously a free thinker.

'Does anyone agree with me that Amber Rudd's TV performance against Boris J. was cruel and unprofessional?'

Absolutely, and it was a sucking up performance in order to get a promotion if Remain win, in my opinion.

the whole point of that much circulated list of Remain v Leave was to highlight the calibre of crap who are leading the Leave camp

Of course the Remainers are all talking complete truth.

This campaign is directly on both sides.

'Funnily enough, when I look at the maps of who supports what it is the wealthiest parts getting up in arms over nothing, while the poorer ones all see the benefits. '

"BREXIT BOMBSHELL: Map shows how people will vote in EU poll and it's bad news for Cameron

THE crusade to get Britain out of the EU was handed a massive boost after a bombshell map showed huge swathes of the country want to sever ties with Brussels.
...
The YouGov research also revealed working class areas were more anti-EU, blowing a hole in Labour's insistence on backing Brussels against the wishes of its traditional voter base."

www.express.co.uk/news/uk/648583/Map-people-vote-EU-poll-bad-Cameron-project-fear-European-Union-Brussels

I think Westminster, the vicinity around Goldman Sachs' HQ and the area where all the teenage spin doctors live is probably for Remain, but most of England isn't.

"Their shock results show that the further south in Britain you live the more likely it is that you are a Eurosceptic, with most of England now backing a Brexit."

Globe the UK government, both labour and Tories have mismanaged the UK over the last decade causing those problems I've cited. The free movement of people which is an EU right has exacerbated those problems.

10 years later when the electorate would no longer accept uncontrolled mass immigration, David Cameron was forced to renegotiate its terms of membership with the EU in Feburary, the EU wouldnt listen and gave nothing concrete to the UK to help manage immigration from the EU.

No, the UK government has mismanaged these issues, not all are connected to free movement by any stretch of the imagination (obviously...because they do not exist or certainly not as substantially in other EU member states which were party to identical freedom of movement policy!).

Your list : "wage freezes, insecure employment with worsening terms and conditions, high rents/ house prices, failing health service, pension robbery by billionaires, scramble for of school places, lack of social housing, tuition fees and debt."

Is a direct consequence of UK democracy and fundamental UK governmental mismanagement. Not the EU.

At least UK democracy means we can get rid of governments that mismanage things.

Demonicdivas I honestly had lost the will to live reading this thread - and now at least I know there's one sane person left in the UK.

And while I'm here and raging, what the fucking fuck is all this utter shit being bandied about about the democracy of the UK? If I recall aright, this poxy godforsaken government was voted for by less than 50% of the British people.

' If I recall aright, this poxy godforsaken government was voted for by less than 50% of the British people.'

But that is more than voted for their MEP and none of them had teh chance to vote for the EU Commission or the President or the MEPs of other countries that they disagreed with such as those from Greece's neo-fascist Golden Dawn or France's Front National.

Why are we putting our future in the hands of unelected officials or extermist parties that we didn't vote for and why is our political class and Goldman Sachs gin favour of this system?