Can anyone explain why the government and others are so desperate for us to stay?

[TwentyOneGuns]

I'm the first to admit that my knowledge of politics and economics is not great but it seems to me there must be more to it than we are being told. If they are getting so scared of a Leave vote that they have to threaten us with Emergency budgets etc what are they really worrying about? I just can't believe they have only the interests of the country at heart. What do they get out of it if we vote Remain?

Because they're the ones who'll benefit!
Not sure it'll affect me either way but...
If I was wealthy with a well paid job in banking in the City I'd vote Remain.
If I lived in an area where lots of economic immigrants are being dumped and given houses to live in while I languished on the housing list living in cramped or squalid conditions I'd vote Leave.
If I was on an NHS waiting list for a consultation or operation which seemed unlikely to ever happen because the NHS is almost bankrupt because of non-residents having uncontrolled access to our NHS I'd vote Leave.
If I knew that many people here legally from the EU were claiming benefits and sending money to their dependants in other EU countries (money paid to the Government by UK taxpayers) I'd vote Leave.
If I wanted the UK to keep all its peculiarly British values and customs I'd vote Leave.

If I wanted an elected Government to make and uphold our laws (as opposed to an unelected mass of foreigners living it up on UK taxpayers money) I'd vote Leave.
The Government doesn't have any money of its own, it all comes from UK taxpayers so we'd like a say in how it's spent.
If I wanted to move to Australia or the USA I'd have to fulfil their visa requirements. It seems anyone can move to the UK and claim taxpayers money (in benefits).
It's such a personal decision which is why it's so difficult to call.
You can probably guess what which way my vote will go

"Europe's glory days at an end, warns Juncker

The European Union faces an age of comparative economic decline, while the 'love' affair' of integration is at risk, says Jean-Claude Juncker "

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/11949038/Europes-glory-days-at-an-end-warns-Juncker.html

What are we doing in it then? If that is what Juncker thinks, then why is Cameron doing somersaults and cartwheels to try and make us stay in it? Why hasn't Cameron told us what Junkcer really thinks about it? What does Juncker know that Cameron doesn't?

The last question was rhetorical, we all know Juncker knows far more about it than Cameron.

"Cameron's Brain," the formidable thinker, Steve Hilton, has abandoned Cameron and chosen to go for Brexit in spite of the dire warnings that Cameron has scratched together and all of what Cameron calls "the experts" he has been able to muster.

Take heed of Steven Hilton. It's always those who have worked closely with politicians, especially those in govt, know which way the wind blows and the real reasons behind Remain.

Yes it was me above saying i live in a Tory stronghold so no point voting in our 'vastly' more democratic system we have compared to Europe..

Just picking apart some of these...

If I was wealthy with a well paid job in banking in the City I'd vote Remain. - Id agree (even though i hate the banking sector and it needs a shake up) as the UK has the worlds biggest financial sector!!

If I lived in an area where lots of economic immigrants are being dumped and given houses to live in while I languished on the housing list living in cramped or squalid conditions I'd vote Leave.

We dont know the scale of this and is more a local council problem. As before I have written what did Nu-labour and Tories do with all the tax they have been receiving from workers contributing more tax then benefits they claim. UK problem

If I was on an NHS waiting list for a consultation or operation which seemed unlikely to ever happen because the NHS is almost bankrupt because of non-residents having uncontrolled access to our NHS I'd vote Leave.

The NHS we are told doesn't collect proper data or process these properly, so its NHS failing, nothing to do with EU. A UK problem get a private company to collect the money if NHS dont want to.

If I knew that many people here legally from the EU were claiming benefits and sending money to their dependants in other EU countries (money paid to the Government by UK taxpayers) I'd vote Leave

Do we actually know this? The amount of benefit fraud is minute compared to tax evasion and avoidance which is waaaaay more bad, but as it a posh crime, doesn't get traction in Blighty.

If I wanted the UK to keep all its peculiarly British values and customs I'd vote Leave.

Like price fixing, cartel, non unionised labour 'flexible' serfs/labour? I dont know kinda stretching here for answers but again nothing to do with EU.

If I wanted an elected Government to make and uphold our laws (as opposed to an unelected mass of foreigners living it up on UK taxpayers money) I'd vote Leave.

We have an unelected prime minster, house of lords and many of us in bullet proof constituencies all living it up - leaving EU wont fix that.
We actually sit on committees with those 'foreigners' and companies in the UK help drive those standards, but do go on believing that. They also have some really good ideas on people having good working conditions.

If I wanted to move to Australia or the USA I'd have to fulfil their visa requirements. It seems anyone can move to the UK and claim taxpayers money (in benefits)

Checks can be made if people actually bother. Bit goady, any non-eu person cant claim anything for ten years that includes 'soft' benefits like child benefit. They also have to have money in the bank.

Most of the 'cases' people put forward to me have nothing to do with EU just crap governments in UK, all using it as a cheap scapegoat which people lap up.

Dont get me wrong I would vote Leave if we had radically different political class, taxation, government etc.

Good point, Diana, and that reminds me, this is what Steve Hilton said

"Steve Hilton on government Brexit numbers…

“They are made up. I know because I used to do that stuff”.

order-order.com/quote/hilton-on-treasury-figures/

That is straight from the horse's mouth, from the man Cameron relied upon and the man widely known as "Cameron's Brain"

I concur with you, Mycraneisfixed

Being in charge of running a country and dealing with unruly citizens is very difficult. Who wants to be continually challenged by well-informed people? Some politicians would love to get back to how it was in England pre-WW2 - where the population knew their place, took what work was offered, and tugged their forelocks. Social mobility is dangerous for rulers, they want status quo on their terms.

How to reduce the voice of a vociferous and intelligent population? Impoverish them.

'Dont get me wrong I would vote Leave if we had radically different political class, taxation, government etc.'

If we vote Leave, our entire political system may have to change because it will be such a shock to the political class that the people have defied all their "experts" and advice.

The goverment are forcing companies and other establishments to talk to people to persuade them to vote theyre way

Which government? The EU government? Or the democratically elected UK government? Serious question.

This is our last chance possibly to vote out of this EU. Something for which nobody voted for in the first place. People voted to join a trade organisation. Sooner or later it will crumble and the fall-out will be huge. The UK is far far better off out before this happens. That's my opinion.

I agree it's falling apart. The countries waiting to join are poor but what they do offer is cheap labour and lots of it that's good for business profit

If we go others will soon follow if we don't other are soon going to leave as there are calls over Europe for a referendum

BreakingDad77
Good arguments. The point I was really trying to make was that most people aren't influenced by "what's good for the country" but what's good for that individual or their family. So the politicians and their debates won't change 99% of the electorate's vote. It'll be fascinating to see how it turns out.

Beaker : "If you don't like bad government, then use your vote at the general election and the European elections to choose better politicians and better policies."

The MEPs don't initiate legislation so to vote them out does not change direction of laws proposed.

People get confused by "propose" "draft" and "initiate" - the commission does all three. But initiate is the key problem.

In UK we elect a government based on a series of proposed legislative initiatives - which the House ofLords help to shape by suggesting amendments.

MEPs and HoL are similar in that legislation they can propose is what is known as "non controversial". Also commission can refuse permission of proposals by MEPs. Also this is where lobbying by big companies is effective.

The EU Commission are free to propose anything covered in treaties - MEP can (with other MEPS) ask for commission to consider a proposal. We don't elect commission and we can't dismiss them - we have no control over direction of travel particularly taking into account how voting works.

We have a hereditary head of state and unelected second chamber of government. I'm not sure how democratic that makes us.

Gotta love the naivety of those who think that leaving the EU and not having free movement of labour will suddenly mean that we get higher wages. What has done the biggest damage to secure and well paid employment - EU or the closure of British industry and manufacturing to outsource from the Far East? That nice Brexiter James Dyson - where is his factory based now?

Also worth noting is the commission dictate type of voting required depending on whether they deliver a "positive opinion" on Parliaments amendments to council. If Commission don't like the amendments they can say it needs to pass unanimously - if they do approve of the changes they can say law will pass on qualified majority 2/3rds

As seen attached: "The Council votes by qualified majority on the Parliament's amendments for which the Commission has delivered a positive opinion. It votes unanimously on the Parliament's amendments for which the Commission has delivered a negative opinion. The Council can only react to the Parliament's amendments."

www.consilium.europa.eu/en/council-eu/voting-system/qualified-majority/

As British people have never voted on ever closer union - it is undemocratic to have decisions affecting us made by people we cannot remove from power.

Titchy - do you not understand " legislative initiative"?

UK is democratic because we elect in general election a government whose policies won a majority - they then propose, debate etc and pass to HoL. We - the people hand legislative initiative to a government and they pass it back to us at a general election to pass to whom we vote for next.

We do not elect commission - they have legislative initiative and pass to MEPs to amend (bit like role of HoL except we get to vote for the ones without the legislative initiative). As above, Commission also affect voting required by council dependant on whether they like changes made by MEPs.

Basics on HoL

www.parliament.uk/education/teaching-resources-lesson-plans/house-of-lords-how/

Basics on commission: council and parliament can ask commission - who decide whether to initiate-

hum.port.ac.uk/europeanstudieshub/learning/module-2-understanding-eu-policy-making/the-right-of-initiative-does-the-commission-have-the-monopoly-of-initiation/

Note the generous idea we can "ask" commission if we can get a million signatures across at least one quarter of member states..... "Citizen initiative"

We do not get a manifesto from the commission on proposals as they are fulfilling objectives of treaties - we can't get them to change direction (see Cameron's "deal").

Craig - I agree - will have to realise people nowadays are informed and see behind their experts. Experts that took us in to Iraq and mess in Libya

Their mates at IMF not doing them any favours - not agreeing with Treasury.
news.sky.com/story/1713684/imf-brexit-may-not-mean-a-british-recession

Cameron got absolutely zilch when he went to the EU asking for reform. And yet he carries on talking about a reformed EU. What is this reformed EU. It doesn't exist. It's a figment of his imagination. It isn't going to reform. It's going to dictate more and more to us and make our Parliament weaker and weaker. I've never been more determined to vote out.

'Experts that took us in to Iraq and mess in Libya '

Absolutely, I think that Farage referred to some of the whizzes in the Foreign Office as "teenagers" in the debate with Cleggy.

'Their mates at IMF not doing them any favours - not agreeing with Treasury.'

That is very interesting, that is not what Project Fear had hoped to hear. Maybe that is why we have heard little about the IMF forecast which was bigged up by the media for days but appears to be a damp squib for Project Fear.

'Cameron got absolutely zilch when he went to the EU asking for reform'

I am not sure that is quite accurate. I think he did get a clip around the ear.

Experts that took us into Iraq - erm like BoJo and IDS?

It was Blair that led us into the Iraq War

With information that may not have been as honest as it was present

And the Tories enthusiastically backed him. He had to rely on their support as he didn't get it from his own party.

Oh I agree

But it's the evidence he put to them that's questionable