Can anyone explain why the government and others are so desperate for us to stay?

[TwentyOneGuns]

I'm the first to admit that my knowledge of politics and economics is not great but it seems to me there must be more to it than we are being told. If they are getting so scared of a Leave vote that they have to threaten us with Emergency budgets etc what are they really worrying about? I just can't believe they have only the interests of the country at heart. What do they get out of it if we vote Remain?

In reality, over 600,000 people from the EU registered for national insurance numbers in the last year alone.

The question on immigration is with them contributing more than they claim why are the Tories using it with other cuts to disabled people to fund tax cuts for rich people. Gove a case in point blocking schools etc.

This is not the EU's fault where ever these people came from if tax is coming in - wheres the spend!

I tried to stop this in last election but I'm in a Tory stronghold so no democracy for me.

How many economists and bankers predicted the last financial crash?
If they couldn't predict that, then why do they think they can make accurate predictions about UK leaving Europe?

"Can I ask your opinion Claig --- why haven't the Leave campaign made more of a noise about the ludicrous immigration figures? "

Because they are scared of bringing it up. We have a political class that often does not tell the truth and that uses scaremongering and lies to fool the people, just like teh former banker, Macron, telling the British people that we will be like Guersney.

Farage has been deliberately left out of this referendum, has been shunned by Boris and the system because he dares to tell truths and they don't like that.

The Leave campaign did not want to talk about immigration and they were behind in the polls over Remain's arguments over the economy, backed up the "experts" that Cameron could call upon. Then they panicked and decided to switch to what Farage had been saying i.e. Leave switched to immigration and they took the lead in the polls.

We have a disconnect between the people and the political class. The political class are out of touch with the people and don't want to discuss the issues that the people are worried about and are discussing.

The political class and bankers are not to be trusted - unless they are BJ, Farage, Gove, IDS - stand up, salt of the earth guys one and all.

I genuinely don't get the logic - how are Macron, Cameron, Osborne - the political class but Johnson and Farage not?

Beaky Blame Radio 4 then, that's the figure they produced.

That makes sense, although cutting off their nose to spite their face comes to mind.

"Can I ask your opinion Claig --- why haven't the Leave campaign made more of a noise about the ludicrous immigration figures? "

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.

"How many economists and bankers predicted the last financial crash?
If they couldn't predict that, then why do they think they can make accurate predictions about UK leaving Europe?"

There's a difference between predicting an event and analysing the likely effects of actions. House fires are not usually predicted, but most people can work out that leaving a candle next to a curtain is not wise.

' genuinely don't get the logic - how are Macron, Cameron, Osborne - the political class but Johnson and Farage not?'

Forget Johnson, because we all know that he is in it for himself.

Macron, Cameron and Osborne are part of the system, they are histage to the system because the system has immense power. Cameron used to pretend that he was Eurosceptic but the mask has fallen n this referendum as we have seen him argue ridiculously and with all sorts of scaremongering for a pro EU position when just months ago he said he would leave if he didn't get a good deal.

He has no choice, he is hostage to the system.

Farage nver was and never is hostage to the system. He is an outsider and threatens and challenges the consensus of the system which is why Claire Fox on Any Questions just now rightly said that Farage and his party, UKIP, have been vilified by the system. They always will be because they are not part of the system because their views oppose what it wants to do.

Guardian editor comes out today for Brexit - a voice for the low paid workers against the big corporates lobbying EU.

www.theguardian.com/money/blog/2016/jun/18/eu-vote-brexit-working-people-rents-wages

It's a fair question Dapple.

Investors and traders who are the ones who would crash the economy, by selling off shares in British companies and betting against the pound. But if they thought prospects for Britain were good, they'd do the opposite. These people have their own money staked on calling it right.

So we need some clues as to how they see the situation. And the market data shows clearly that when the polls predict Brexit, they sell off the pound and UK shares. When the polls tend to Remain, they buy the pound and UK shares.

This is not some airy-fairy academic prediction. The economic impact is happening in real time and we're already watching it. The financial and investment press is full of it, though you won't see that on the BBC or the Daily Mail.

(Btw a number of traders did predict the last crash. The film 'The Big Short' was all about it)

'That makes sense, although cutting off their nose to spite their face comes to mind.'

They always do that because they are scared. They cut Farage out even though, whatever the media all say, Farage appeals to the working class and is one of the most courageous politicians we have in this country as he is one of the few who is prepared to challenge the consensus of the system, which is of course why so much vilification is heaped upon him by the great and the good.

We have a system that does not really listen to what it does not want to hear. It listens to the City, the bankers and the lobbyists and tries to spin the people instead of treating them with respect.

How many economists and bankers predicted the last financial crash?

There was massive fraudulent accounting of risk against sub primes due to poor regulation of the sector.

Please can people put this to bed already.

That's huge for Leave Leave(!). Isn't he the money editor?

Well apparently we should leave so we can stop trading with the 500 million strong single market on our door step, and instead overnight negotiate replacement trade treaties with other countries and the EU itself (which in our case will definitely not take the usual years and years of talks for some important reason that Boris hasn't quite fully explained yet).

Armed with these treaties, we will then suddenly become a nimble economy pursuing more lucrative opportunities with China, the USA and erm, Russia.

Life in the UK will be amazing, especially once all those pesky large companies and banks move their HQs and operations quietly out of the UK to Frankfurt or Paris so they can still access the EU single market (and don't worry - both Germany and France have already met to work how to offer them incentives to reduce their operations in the UK if we leave the EU). And the tech start ups too, as they can't get the staff or investment from the EU as easily.

There will be some awkward things to deal with of course. Like the President of China telling us it was best that we stay in the EU as that's where China wants to build links, at the EU level. And the US telling us we'd be at the back of the queue for trade treaties with them. And even Michael Gove admits that not everyone will keep their jobs if we leave. And of course, there will be a recession for a bit, naturally. And "nimble" is usually business speak for "reducing employment rights for employees".

But hey ho! You can't make an omelette without breaking some eggs, right?

Remain.

The writing was on the wall for the last big crash

Of course economists and bankers could see it sadly many protected themselves and let those without protection pay the price

The big hats who want the UK to remain do so for their own self serving reasons.
Likewise for the big hats who want the UK to leave.

It's a case of you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours.
It has always been this way. Politics and business, happy bedfellows. And the long list of churches; let's not forget them

I don't believe everything I read.

I don't know anyone who is voting leave who thinks life will be amazing

They just feel it may offer a difference to the future which for many isnt good the remain is not offering that just more of the same and that for many is worth the gamble

You do realise that however grim things are now, they could get worse?

Patrick Collinson, who wrote the Guardian article on deciding to vote for Brexit is

"Patrick Collinson is money editor of the Guardian and the newspaper's personal finance editor"

I am surprised at that level of independent thought in the Guardian.

Yes again I think most people are aware of that

But when you are at the bottom of the barrel and have been for some time a few more years being there and hopefully moving up is not as frightening as thats where you are now stay

Bear in mind that we have handed over many competencies to the EU.

When they come back under our control who knows what they will show?

I think the establishment worry about skeletons in the closet.

'You do realise that however grim things are now, they could get worse?'

That is why people are voting Leave.

Thick android: yes money editor - the charmer he is referring to as landlord doing well out of current situation:

www.kentonline.co.uk/maidstone/news/property-mogul-has-no-english-43078/

www.theguardian.com/money/2015/sep/12/fergus-wilson-rent-rise-property-kent-maidstone

That Guardian editor is deluded if he thinks no 1 on Bojo's and Farage's list post-Brexit is improving wages and working conditions for bus drivers and care home cleaners.

The care home sector will be a basket case if we Brexit. It's hugely reliant on EU nationals to staff and not because they undercut UK workers salaries - care work has always been shit pay and shit conditions. It was the EU who recently ensured that travel time was included in care workers salaries - not the UK government.