Anyone else daring to get a bit excited now

[Millyonthefloss]

I am starting to allow myself to get excited about a better, fairer future for our country.

Dennis Skinner and John Mann of Labour coming out for Brexit.

And a letter from the JCB Chairman on the BBC website.

The letter he said he was "very confident that we can stand on our own two feet".
He also said that more than 53% of all UK exports go to non-EU nations.
In response, the Remain side said firms including Airbus and BMW, had already written to their staff to put the benefits of staying in the EU.

Lord Bamford told his employees that the referendum's outcome "will determine the future of our country" with a "lasting impact on the lives of our children and grandchildren".

Lovely principled men.

1. Immigration needs to be controlled. Open borders within Europe are unsustainable and if the numbers grow as forecasted housing and public services won't be able to support everyone at their current standard. There should be a limit on immigrants coming into the UK each year. A huge issue for me.

Housing and public services have been run down by the mismanagement of various UK governments (think the council house sell off, privatisation etc). Immigration is a red herring.

2. The economy. We DO give £350billion per annum to Brussels. That fact is correct that is the gross figure. The bet figure is lower and some comes back to us. Apart from the deficit the rest of the money coming back to us has strings attached, Brussels decide how we have to spend it. I disagree wholeheartedly with this. There is then a proportion of that money we never see again. Even if our trade deals with Europe had to have a tariff applied of forecasted same levels other non EU countries have to pay we would still be better off.

The EU has provided money for regeneration of deprived UK towns and cities (there is a link on another thread). I cannot see the Tories investing in these areas.

3. I don't for one second believe the UK government would repeal all human rights laws. That's preposterous and just unintelligent.

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/the-tory-plan-to-scrap-the-human-rights-act-just-moved-one-step-closer-10491173.html

4. National security. Terrorists have been shown to have moved through the EU to Britain. If we monitored our borders we would have better control over national security and more protection against terrorist attacks.

I think it would be much better to work closely with our European partners to share intelligence. Weren't the 7/7 bombers British born?

5. Europe is failing economically. It's not a good thing to be tied to and especially with talk of admitting turkey and such like.

We live under globalised economy - UK will not be immune to economic turmoil elsewhere (see 2008)

"Brexit voters don’t listen to elites. But they might listen to Labour"

www.theguardian.com/business/2016/jun/12/brexit-voters-dont-listen-elites-might-labour-eu-referendum-corbyn-mcdonnell

Cloud cuckoo land. No one will listen to McDonnella and Corbyn in his fake fur coat provided for him by the teenage advisers who surround all of the political class and provide them with their policies.

Corbyn's mobile phone rings.

"Hello, Jezza speaking"
"Hello, Jezza, it's the Prime Minister's Office"
"Alwight"
"Yes, thanks. I say, would you mind awfully helping us out a bit with this referendum?"
"As long as it doesn't involve singing the national anthem, putting a tie on and wearing a proper suit, then OK"
"No, no, don't worry, it's not that. It's just that we've had the President of the EU Commission on the phone telling us to pull our finger out"
"Wot, Junket?"
"Yes, Juncker"
"Our best teenage whizzkids suggest that you dress up in a fur coat and turn up on a yoof programme in a sports car with "Cor Blimey" as the number plate. We have to win the yoof vote because the older voters are all wearing Farage badges."
"Are they racists? Who on earth do they vote for?"
"They are traditional dyed-in-the-wool Labour voters, we are told"
"Yes, maybe now you can understand why we're struggling to get the Labour vote out."
"OK, I'll do it as long as Cameron promises not to take the piss at PMQs"

Claig, on what plannet are you on? The world is a smaller place than ever before and a much more complex one at that. The fact is the EU brings a great brnefit to all members, simplifying trade and providing a trading area with a level playing field that is large enough to place personal rights, freadoms and public safety ahead of soley economic reasons. The UK is the biggest old boys network in the world and our best protection from it is the EU. Just what specific beneficial changes do you think will be created by leaving? I'm guessing you answer will reference some vague "Red Tape " that you can't wuote but are sure exists, some equally vauge reference to maintaining sovereignty that you can't quantify but sounds good at the bar and probably some derogatory slur on immigration that your sure is deserved never mind that our policy and borders are only strengthened by our current membrrship. I've served my country, run a small business here and worked in defence for a large swath of my career but the small minded, media lead morons banging the leave drum make me ashamed to be British. Look at the route cause of your issues and you will find that none of them will be improved by an exit.

'The fact is the EU brings a great brnefit to all members, simplifying trade and providing a trading area with a level playing field that is large enough to place personal rights, freadoms and public safety ahead of soley economic reasons. '

There is 50% and 40 % youth unemployment in Greece and Spain. Suicides have gone through the roof and people are struggling to feed their children in Greece under the banker driven Troika austerity. The Italian government was replaced with a bunch of unelected technocrats, some of whom used to work for Goldman Sachs, if I remember correctly. The far right is on the rise all over Europe and a German citizen who made a comic video about the Trurkish President may have overstepped the limits of free speech and may need to stand trial in Turkey.

'The UK is the biggest old boys network in the world and our best protection from it is the EU'

Well after the British peopl eignore the advice of the "old boys", the entire political system will have to be reformed as no amount of teenage whizzkids will be able to dress it up in a faux fur coat any more.

'Just what specific beneficial changes do you think will be created by leaving? '

We will regain the right to elect our own lawmakers who are democratically accountable to us and we can fire all the useless ones when they don't listen to us. We will make the British people sovereign again and be able to control who is allowed to reside in our country.

'but the small minded, media lead morons banging the leave drum make me ashamed to be British.'

Are you a member of the political class? That is the low opinion they have of the British people?

1. If housing and services are run down, encouraging hundreds of thousands more people to come and use and need these things is wrong.

2. More money is being given to poor EU states and less to UK deprived areas, which have become worse since mass immigration of poor people to poor areas, see Frank Field and others.

3. Utter nonsense and scaremongering and the UK public wouldn't stand for it.

4)We are as strong as our weakest link which is very weak indeed when your talking about countries like Romania. Ex mi6 chief has said we wouldn't share any information with them at all. We have a very good strong intelligence service and we benefit weaker countries like Belgium with shared intelligence.
Its in all our interests to work together to a degree to stop terrorism and this wouldn't stop in the event of Brexit.
Many of the recent Bombers, attackers have been born in the EU, eg Uk OR Belgium, however, they have exploited open borders to get to and from Syria, and to bring weapons where they need them. They move around freely, with ease and un challenged.
5) Better to be nimble and free to dodge what we can rather than tethered to a sinking ship.

Does America have trouble trading with Europe? Does Japan? Does China?

No, of course not. Why are the Remain campaign making out like it'll be impossible for us to trade with Europe if we leave?

'Why are the Remain campaign making out like it'll be impossible for us to trade with Europe if we leave?'

Put yourself in ther shoes. What would you do if you had no valid arguments? Project Fear is all they have and they are milking it.

I don't think anyone believes that should we leave things will be great and the country shall immediately prosper and we shall all benefit within a year

ffs people are more intelligent than that

But what so many on the remain side who continuously patronise those voting out with these statements is for many they are aware that things could be be difficult for a few years but what does a few more years matter when it's been a struggle for many years and though as a country we are economically in a good position things haven't changed for them for many it's got harder but that something may change is not what remaining offers

But keep patronising its angering people and this will make more people to actually go and vote

Just like Remainers think that British science will fail if we Leave, despite the fact that there are 37 British universities in the top world league tables, only topped by the US. Other EU countries are way down, only managing one or two per country of their universities in the same league table. Does rather suggest that there is something unique about British universities.

Yes the patronising Remain campaign are pushing many of the undecided to vote Leave.

British scientists think science will suffer. I guess they might know a bit more about that particular area.

They know a lot about science but they don't seem to realise that EU funding is just taxpayers money.

If the vote is out Cameron will have to step down. We will then have a hard right Tory government.

Am I expected to believe the Tories will fund deprived (usually Labour voting) areas? We've had welfare cuts, public sector cuts/privatisation under the ideology of austerity for the last 6 years!

'We will then have a hard right Tory government. '

An awful lot of the governnment will still be MPs who voted to remain in the EU. The Tories have a majority of 11. They won't be able to make big changes even if they wanted to, so I think a new election will soon be called and then the people can decide what they want.

We heard Scottish Tory, Forsyth, on Any Questions the other night arguing against TTIP and the Scottish Labour MP arguing for the free trade agreement.

Our entire political world is changing as Gove has turned towards national sovereignty and "taking back control" which is the opposite of Cameron and Blair and everything that has gone before. Just as Trump is anti the free trade deals, we are seeing a section of the Tory party also putting country above business.

That is why we will have to have a new election and the people will get rid of the Blairite dead wood.

Farage said that some things like "quality o life" are more important than GDP particularly as GDP per capita decreases and the wealth ends up with the fat cats.

This is heresy to the servant class of politicians we have been used to who serve lobbyists above the quality of life of the people.

Everything is changing and our values will change as brave politicians like Gove have deserted their chums who serve the corporcrats.

The aftermath of Brexit will be a completely new politics - one that puts people and the country first, above the knighted business moguls and free wheeling corporations.

We have seen that Labour has failed to adapt to the people's new mood with Umunna and Benn and Cooper and all that lot still banging their old Blairite drum. It will be brave Labour politicians like John Mann who understand the new popular mood who will have to lead Labour towards the new politics.

Cameron, Osborne and that lot will be the losers. the new thinking will be led by Gove, and just as he tries his best to reform prisons, he will try his best to reform our politics.

Party loyalty above country and the people will vanish as the new politics evolves.

There will be howls from Blair, JP Morgan and Goldman Sachs, but they will have to adapt to the changes that will come.

I agree claig. I wasn't convinced by Gove on education, but have been impressed by his intelligent and measured contribution to the referendum debate.

The aftermath of Brexit will be a completely new politics - one that puts people and the country first, above the knighted business moguls and free wheeling corporations.

Michael Gove and IDS voted to cut ESA. So under your "people's Republic of Brexit" it certainly won't be the poor and vulnerable "taking back control."

A Tory party that doesn't back big business/corporations is beyond the realms of fantasy.

If I live to be 101 I will never understand what you are - oops, no, sorry, that was George Michael

no, I mean I will never get why Corbyn didn't just side with Brexit. I suspect it was because he thought they didn't have a cat's chance in hell of winning but even, an eternal pessimist, am getting a tiny spark of hope now.

if the pound is going to nosedive for a few days is it worth buying some dollars and then buying pounds with them when pounds are cheap?!

Gove is amazing. He has defied all the chums and cronies and put the country and the people above his career. Every bigwig on the planet has been ordered to fight back, bollockings are being given to Cameron by his bosses and he has vowed to "make them pay for their nonsense on stilts".

Cameron won't be making anyone pay, because we are likely to win.

When have you ever hard a Tory politicians use sensible language like Gove does?

"It is time to tell Brussels elite 'you're fired'

He accused the broadcaster of being on the side of the "elites", while he was on the "side of the people".

And he added: "It's the invincible arrogance of Europe's elites that gets me.

"These are people who have seen the euro collapse. These are people who are presiding over a migration crisis on their borders, and yet do they ever acknowledge that they need to change? No.

"They say they need more integration, more of our money, more control over this country.

"I think it's time that we said to people who are incapable of acknowledging that they've ever got anything wrong: 'I'm sorry, you've had your day.'

"Unelected, unaccountable elites, I'm afraid it's time to say 'You're fired. We are going to take back control'."

www.yorkshireeveningpost.co.uk/news/national/brexit-campaigner-michael-gove-it-is-time-to-tell-brussels-elite-you-re-fired-1-7945296

This is a revolution, a people's revolution. And what does our Prime Minister call it, immediately after receiving yet another bollocking from his bosses by phone? He calls it "nonsense on stilts" and vows to make us pay.

It's over for King Canute or King Cannit or whoever he thinks he is.

Gove has thrown down the gauntlet and the people are cheering him on. The revolution is on and we are going to win.

As Boris says, Jun 24 will be Independence Day, and a little thanks will be due to Farage, the man the BBC despises.

Gove said in the debate that he argued against lots of government policies, but at the end of the day, he had to go along when he lost the argument, as a senior member of the government.

But what this brilliant popular referendum has done is to liberate all the politicians and we can all see who they really are.

Liam Fox, Chris Grayling, Gove, Priti Patel, Andrea Leadsom have been liberated, we are seeing a side of them we have never seen as they previously had to do as they were told. Now they are free to think outside the box, to think about what is best for the country and the people and not the corporate lobbyists and banks.

It is a breath of fresh air and it is blowing the stuffy, cliquey Establishment away. They are issuing bollockings to Cameron and he is putting the frighteners on the people and vowing to make all and sundry pay, but he is likr a powerless scarecrow, alone in a field with just Goldman Sachs next to him, while the people are all partying in the Democracy and Independence Rave down the road with DJ Gove and MC Boris.

It is a breath of fresh air and it is blowing the stuffy, cliquey Establishment away. They are issuing bollockings to Cameron and he is putting the frighteners on the people and vowing to make all and sundry pay, but he is likr a powerless scarecrow, alone in a field with just Goldman Sachs next to him, while the people are all partying in the Democracy and Independence Rave down the road with DJ Gove and MC Boris.

That's a fantastic paragraph claig, one of the best I've seen in the debate

Thanks, Winter

It's the alcohol wot does it.

Claig