Anyone else daring to get a bit excited now

[Millyonthefloss]

I am starting to allow myself to get excited about a better, fairer future for our country.

Dennis Skinner and John Mann of Labour coming out for Brexit.

And a letter from the JCB Chairman on the BBC website.

The letter he said he was "very confident that we can stand on our own two feet".
He also said that more than 53% of all UK exports go to non-EU nations.
In response, the Remain side said firms including Airbus and BMW, had already written to their staff to put the benefits of staying in the EU.

Lord Bamford told his employees that the referendum's outcome "will determine the future of our country" with a "lasting impact on the lives of our children and grandchildren".

Lovely principled men.

Claig, if you're not on the Brexit PR team already, I think you may be getting a call....!

Not sure about MC Boris though. I think he's a stooge.

'Not sure about MC Boris though. I think he's a stooge.'

Very possibly. But he is only the frontman clown, he is not the brains so it doesn't really matter what he does.

Claig, I've heard many people say they find the personalities off putting - it's a shame of course, they should look at the facts - but it does worry me. I didn't watch the last debate but my mum said he was really awful (she's for Brexit).

I think Boris is basically out for himself and doesn't have firm beliefs one way or the other. He would easily change his mind, but it doesn't really matter because by himself he won't be able to influence anything. He will have to follow the flow and listen to the people if he wants to remain popular. He has jumped ship from Cameron's crew because he realises that it is a sinking ship just like the EU, even though his dad is all in for the EU and used to work for it etc. He realises that it is a lost cause so he has abandoned it.

Claig, I think he jumped as a pre arranged deal of some kind with Dave, and they weren't expecting a Brexit.

ach well - we live in interesting times. I still can't really believe Brexit might win. I keep thinking of the Red Box song - "the first man he gets up, and he says, well can I have a say....ten men they get up and they say well can I have a say.."

'I think he jumped as a pre arranged deal of some kind with Dave'

I wondered whether he would deliberately mess up in a debate near the end and say "Cameron was right all along", but watching him take the piss out of Cameron and use his jokes to mock Remain, he is doing too much damage to them and enthusing the Leave campaigners for him to be secretly working for Cameron.

Cameron needs all the help he can get. All he has got is Umunna, Benn, the Bank of England and the IMF and Boris can singlehandedly mock the lot of them with one joke.

I haven't really been watching the debates so don't know how Cam is doing.

Someone else I thought would be for the EU disbanding would be Yanis Varoufakis (I have probably spelt that wrong) but he's another one for reform from within. I agree with Gove - there's no sign at all from the Eurocrats that they will reform.

'Someone else I thought would be for the EU disbanding would be Yanis Varoufakis'

Yes because he is a socialist and nearly all the socialists are happy to go along with the loss of democracy thinking that they will be able to get workers rights' crumbs from the European Central Bank and the bankers at the heart of the EU.

I think he jumped as a pre arranged deal of some kind with Dave
So did I until he started the really damaging attacks on Cameron. There is no way back for Boris now until Cameron has gone.

Cameron needs all the help he can get. All he has got is Umunna, Benn, the Bank of England and the IMF and Boris can singlehandedly mock the lot of them with one joke

The IMF and other bodies have been primed to push out more Project doom next week as the Government cannot so so during purdah.

Cameron's best hope is to create a situation even more damaging than Brexit - suddenly discover a multi-billion £ hole in our existing budget that will make people less likely to take the Brexit risk.

Labour may swing the utterly unthinking tribal voters but most labour voters I meet are not buying it. They tell me of difficulty in getting social housing, of lack of healthcare provision or long waits and of increased competition for work and declining working conditions - all of which they perceive as being caused by the pressure of additional people and by the availability of cheap Labour. Nothing would convince them otherwise - certainly not the economically illiterate howl of Labour that it's all the fault of the Government for not providing extra houses and hospitals, when hospital lead times are such that the Brown Government should have been planning for them to meet the subsequent demands from migration that have since arisen.

Claig,
"difficulty in getting social housing, of lack of healthcare provision or long waits and of increased competition for work and declining working conditions"
None of these issues will be remedied by an exit from the EU. The lack of social housing is the direct fault of Maggie selling the council stock and stealing the money away frpm local authorities such that replacements were not built. Health has systematically been attacked by the Tory party he'll bent on dismantling the NHS such that their cronies can milk the private health care wagon and on the subject of workers rights it was the Tory party who removed all right of appeal against dismissal in the first two years of employment and who refuse to take action against abuse such as zero hours contracts. Our only protection from this treacherous bunch is the EU.
The common garbage sprouted about sovereignty annoys me, we do have a say in the EU, we can make a stand by voting in the EU elections and legislation passed in Brussels is part of that democratic process.

I think many of those voting leave will actually get more satisfaction from the act of leaving, sticking up two fingers at the EU.

They've given themselves permission to have a poor economy for two years - "Of course, we're not stupid," they say. How they know it will only be two years, I've no idea. And neither do they.

But I think the glee and whooping will go on for ages. Until they start losing certain working rights that are regarded as "red tape". Until areas that had been helped with the EU social fund start declining.

And even then the grim satisfaction that we have regained our "sovereignty" will remain (whatever that means) despite the fact there will still be the unelected House of Lords, for example.

The House of Lords isn't ideal, but two wrongs don't make a right. At least our elected MPs can propose and repeal legislation, and you usually hear from them in your community unlike the very distant Brussels politicians. We can't get rid of the EU commission or courts.

There could be an economic hit after Brexit, but people have given up a good deal more than money to retain their democracy. The long-term economic forecast may well be better outside the failing EU.

I don't agree that workers will lose their rights as it would be an extremely unpopular move politically. The UK brought in a number of workers rights before we joined the EU and despite the EU. If we hadn't joined the EU there is every chance we'd have moved forwards on this subject and many others, just like various other countries which aren't in the EU. I find it strange that Labour aren't loudly proclaiming policies to help workers, so that we vote them in at the next election and avoid the Tories next time, but passing the buck to the EU which may look very different before long as the far right rises.

The Remain side's heavy focus on money just makes it seem like they're trying to blackmail the British people. To quote the Rev Giles Fraser "Democracy is not for sale".

Springing "So did I until he started the really damaging attacks on Cameron. There is no way back for Boris now until Cameron has gone."

oh, what has he said?

Winter - re the money, the thing is, it got silenced but didn't Stuart Rose say Brexit would make wages go up for lower paid people - and then followed it up by saying that was bad for business...? Which of course really means it's bad for people who are making over inflated salaries.