Anyone else daring to get a bit excited now

[Millyonthefloss]

I am starting to allow myself to get excited about a better, fairer future for our country.

Dennis Skinner and John Mann of Labour coming out for Brexit.

And a letter from the JCB Chairman on the BBC website.

The letter he said he was "very confident that we can stand on our own two feet".
He also said that more than 53% of all UK exports go to non-EU nations.
In response, the Remain side said firms including Airbus and BMW, had already written to their staff to put the benefits of staying in the EU.

Lord Bamford told his employees that the referendum's outcome "will determine the future of our country" with a "lasting impact on the lives of our children and grandchildren".

Lovely principled men.

Roses

"we have one of the most integrated multi cultural societies in the world"

Yes; but there's still so much to be done to keep the integration ball rolling. Exiting the EU will do nothing - absolutely nothing - but wind all the good work done so far backwards.

I've said it upthread; xenophobia is acceptable now. Think what that will do to our society.

I was referring to the liklihood of our leaving triggering a chain of events that breaks the EU. Quite a lot of people think this is likely including Farage & Gove.

So you can lose the funny faces.

Think what unlimited EU immigration has already done, and will continue to do, to our society.

Yes; but there's still so much to be done to keep the integration ball rolling. Exiting the EU will do nothing - absolutely nothing - but wind all the good work done so far backwards

It will ease it considerably and everyone will calm down again. Why do you think the far right is on the rise?

Its too much, too soon. In fact one reason i want to vote out is to ease the tensions.

People also think its likely to break u p whatever we do. Becauew ita already week and broken

Integration and smashing communities apart are very different things, one we had pre 2004, the other after.,

Roses; I have literally no idea what you're on about.

STEM has to come first

Does it?

we will retreat into little England

and Scotland will endure another sodding IndyRef!

If it ends up that Vote Leave "win" Scotland will have another IndyRef and are much much more likely to vote for breaking away from the UK.

Further proof that division breeds division

"Think a Brexit vote would push Scotland out of the UK? Think again"

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/feb/25/brexit-vote-scotland-out-uk-scottish-independence

2ManySweets, there is a reason that the feeling that immigration is too high is increasingly openly expressed as Labour's John Mann recognises.

That is the view of the majority and it has been hidden for years because the BBC and metropolitan elite made it unacceptable to express. It has now got to the stage where people are prepared to say it opnely and can't be silenced.

If the people's will is ignored then things will only get worse. There are ethnic minorities who also say that immigration is too high. It is not racist. it is mainly pressure on jobs and services, but there is also a fear of loss of identity and culture.

In a democracy, the ruling class have to listen to the people. Cameron pretended he would get immigration down to the tens of thousands "no ifs no buts".

If it ends up that Vote Leave "win" Scotland will have another IndyRef and are much much more likely to vote for breaking away from the UK

I very much doubt it for the following reasons;

1. Scotland would have to adopt the Euro if it wanted to join the EU as an independent country. Nobody in their right mind would vote to join the Euro zone.
2. Scotland has historically done well out of the EU, but instead of being a net recipient of EU funding, Scotland will find itself as a net contributor o the EU as the EU enlarges to include countries even poorer than Scotland, that are currently involving in EU accession talks - Albania, Montenegro, Serbia, Bosnia, Kosovo etc. Funding their developments would cost the Scots a price they will not want to pay.
3. While Scotland is in the union it has England and rUK to rail against. Who will it rail against outside the EU? Outside the EU Sturgeon's work will have been done. Independence will have been achieved. The SNP ceases to perform any purpose or have any goals - unless you cunt giving away that newly gained independence by placing itself under EU power, an organisation in which it would have less influence that it currently does with the UK.
4. It's false to assume that all SNP voters are pro-EU. They are not.

"Don't mention immigration! Labour MP's anger as Corbyn fails to include 'top doorstep issue' in referendum leaflets

Jeremy Corbyn has been accused of blocking any mention of immigration in Labour’s official referendum leaflet setting out its case for the UK remaining in the EU.

Furious MPs say the Labour leader was urged to include a section addressing voters’ concerns about immigration.

They warn that many voters in the party’s traditional Northern heartlands are backing Brexit because of anger over mass immigration. Despite the warning the glossy four-page leaflet mailed to millions of homes does not mention the word immigration."

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3634342/Don-t-mention-immigration-Labour-MP-s-anger-Corbyn-fails-include-doorstep-issue-referendum-leaflets.html

Corbyn is out of touch. There is a danger that lots of Labour voters will abanadon Labour if they don't listen to their concerns and treat every area of the country as if it were islington. In the end, Labour voters will turn elsewhere. Much better to address the issue openly and honestly.

Labour are finished. You would not believe the number of conversations I have with people who start "I usually vote Labour but....." and then go on to list a whole raft of problems that Labour are not addressing or are actively working against. These are the Old Labour voters who are not Corbyn fans, The Blairites have gone over to the Tories - who are more Blairite than One Nation Tory anyway.

And then we have the Corbynistas or the Cult of Corbyn to be more accurate.

They speak of Comrade Corbyn in hushed tones like some latter day saint. I had one young chap today praising Corbyn's integrity and conviction. At which point I just laughed. The poor guy seemed amazed when I gently explained that Corbyn was not the Messiah and that he was not only a turncoat idiot but totally unelectable. That led to gasping face and cries of 'Why? Why?'

If you have to ask, you just don't get it.

Yes. Our entire politics will have to be realigned. The Blairites are unpopular and can never put their gang together again. Corbyn is popular among Labour members but not among many of the working class traditional Labour voters, the unions are sell-outs with Frances Edmonds and even Len McCluskey, the LibDems are irrelevant, Cameron and the modernisers are Blairites and wil be finished whatever happens and Soames and that lot won't be able to go along with Boris who has smelled the coffeee and broken with the modernisers in order to be on the winning team.

The parties will split and realign and the monolithic two party system is now finished as they no longer represent any majority and can't even hold themselves together as the people ignore the Establishment "experts" and all their warnings and scaremongering.

This Referendum has revealed the rottenness of the system with the phonies who pretended they were Eurosceptic to fool Conservative voters now shown to be more Blairite and EU friendly than Blair and Kinnock.

Whatever happens, nothing can continue as before. The people have seen through the phonies and a complete realignment is on the cards.

And even if the phonies beat us and we have to remain, the irony is that the EU is now mortally wounded and finished as the British rebellion will spread across Europe. The phonies may beat us and we may not deliver the coup de grace, but then it will just be the French or Dutch or Italians and even eventually the Germans who do.

"Brexit could lead to EU break-up - Swedish FM Wallstrom

Britain's EU referendum could lead to the break-up of the EU itself, Sweden's foreign minister has warned.

Margot Wallstrom told the BBC a domino effect of demands for referendums and requests for preferential terms by member states could follow.

"The spill-over effect will be unfortunately felt, deeply felt," she said. "It would be bad either way," she added.

The referendum in the UK will take place on 23 June.

A poll for the Independent newspaper, published on Friday evening, suggested that the Leave campaign had 10-point lead.

Ms Wallstrom said if the UK voted to leave, other countries could follow.

"That might affect other EU member states that will say: 'Well if they can leave, maybe we should also have referendums and maybe we should also leave,'" she told the BBC's This Week's World programme.

But other EU countries could also follow the UK example in the event of a vote to remain in the EU, she said.

"If they stay, it might also lead to other countries saying: 'Well, they negotiated, they asked and demanded to have a special treatment so why shouldn't we?'" she said."

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36504890

Cameron, that posturing idiot who openly said Juncker should not be elected and was then oitvoted something like 26 to 1 or 26 to 2, who nearly ended up losing Scotland from the union due to his unpopularity in Scotland and incompetence, and who was scared into an EU Referendum by UKIP and a Tory Eurosceptic rebellion, will soon have to vacate the stage and he will be forgotten and ignored when his record is evaluated in the future.

He has opened Pandora's box and granted the people a Referendum, and he has exposed the rotteness of the Establishment system that everyone already knew about but which has now become self-evident as Greens and Labour and unions and Tories and bankers and Goldman Sachs and Uncle Tom Cobbley line up against the people.

The whole system is wobbling because of his rash posturing and incompetence and he has not just impacted the UK, but has threatened the future of all the Eurocrats and governments across the entire EU because whatever decision the British people make, the tremors that have been set off will shake, crash and destroy the entire EU over the near future.

The hated Farage, the man the BBC despise, the man they put Eddie Izzard on TV for so that the "comedian" can insult and mock Farage, the man the Vote Leave campaign tried to marginalise, the man they don't like to debate, the man they call "racist" will be the only person who was shown to be right all along despite the abuse and mockery he had to endure from a corrupt Establishment of knighted cronies and honour receiving chums.

"Brexit campaigner Farage says UK, Italy to launch EU's disintegration

MILAN (Reuters) - The European Union will start disintegrating after Italians pick the anti-establishment 5-Star Movement candidate as mayor of Rome on June 19 and Britons vote to leave the EU four days later, the leader of the UK Independence Party was quoted as saying.
...
"We can't lose this referendum ... there will be a Big Bang of British politics: nothing will remain the same," Farage said. He said he would "destroy the old EU", together with 5-Star leader Beppe Grillo.

"On June 19 the 5-Star movement elects the mayor of the capital and changes Italy. On June 23 Britain leaves the EU and changes Europe. We will trigger a domino effect. After us, other northern European countries will leave, starting with Denmark," he said. "The EU is about to collapse, disintegrating in several pieces."

uk.news.yahoo.com/brexit-campaigner-farage-says-uk-italy-launch-eus-105849960.html

Cameron triggered it all off. Lords, ladies, luvvies are clinging on by their fingernails, the rotten Establishment is scaremongering and lying as it clings to power in the face of the storm that sweep the rotten Establishment edifice away as the people of Europe end the rule of the unaccounatble elite and their chums in Goldman Sachs and elsewhere.

A total realignment is what Hitchins predicted a few years ago. It's long overdue. A party system where a supposed land-owning class is in opposition to a supposed blue collar working class is long past itself sell by date. New Labour looked like being part of the modernisation - until it became too New for Labour - Islington rather than Isleworth.

There are a lot of disenfranchised Tory voters who only voted for Cameron at the last election to secure this referendum and who will never vote Tory again until it returns to its traditional values. They consider Cameron to be Blue Labour.
They won't go anywhere because there is nowhere for them to go to.

There are a lot of disenfranchised Labour voters who resent the pressures that immigration has placed on housing, schools and access to medical care and who are not wealthy enough to buy themselves private services and who think Labour has lot touch with them. Some may become Kippers, some might go Green. The Blairites have probably joined Cameron's Blue Labour already.

The LibDems are just irrelevant idealists.

UKIP is to be reformed after the referendum.

The Greens are split on the EU.

We probably need 2 main parties - a traditional Conservative Party that will do what the party originally stated as its aim "to conserve the good' and change the rest, and a Social Democratic Party (Blairites and Red Tories). But whatever happens I want a proper opposition - something we have been denied for decades.

We are going to have to have a multiparty system because the British people are now too sophisticated and inteligent to fall into line under Chuka Umunna or a Tory party. We are too divided. There are Green,s there are Corbynistas, there are Ukippers, there are modernisers and Blairites etc etc and they all disagree. Only a multiparty system of coalition in a PR system will adequately represent the views of enough of the British people to make gvernment legitimate.

The rule by a clique of Oxbridge graduates masquearding as servants of the people when they serve Goldman Sachs and the City is over. Everybody sees the knighted phonies for what they are.

For me it would be better if the UK exited. I'm relatively rich, and get paid in a different currency.

But, I think the reason it was set up was to avoid wars, which I think is a really big deal. We were fighting the whole time, and now we don't.

I agree Claig.
It amazes me what people think. I had an Australian screaming at me today telling me that we were not a democratic country because we need proportional representation and compulsory voting.

Had to remind her that in the last referendum we held on the process for electing the Westminster Parliament we rejected AVR. So FPTP is our democratically chosen system. Compulsory voting is a breach of my human rights.

Then you have the World Government people who actually believe the EU is a good first step towards a global Government. Very worthy, but who's going to sell that idea to KiM Jong Un?

Then you meet people who refuse to engage in any way with the democratic process - never voted, never will.

And there are the disenfranchised who have no party that represent their aims.

Perhaps the solution is a patchwork of parties that can be stitched into a multi=party coalition Government. But that is the Italian model and it leads to very unstable Government.

'Then you have the World Government people who actually believe the EU is a good first step towards a global Government. Very worthy, but who's going to sell that idea to KiM Jong Un?'

Kim Join Un will join in because a world government is a world dictatorship with power removed from the people and placed into the hands of the billionaire elites who appoint the unaccountable servants who do their bidding.

John Mann of Labour is right on this. He has come out for brexit and sees it as the beginning of returning power to the people at increasingly local levels. The days of these centralised, unaccounatble socialist, communist, fascist dictatorships masquerading as democracies when decisions are made by unaccountable unelected appointees, nobodies, failed Labour party apparatchiks etc are thankfully over. All over the world the people are rising and defying the Establishment, just about everybody has had enough of the "losers" as Trump also calls them.

'But that is the Italian model and it leads to very unstable Government.'

Yes, but it is a better system. Germany has it, Israel has it etc. It is more messy, but it is better than being led by incompetent idiots from Oxbridge and Eton who are all chums and are all under the groupthink of Goldman Sachs or whoever else they really serve.

But, I think the reason it was set up was to avoid wars, which I think is a really big deal. We were fighting the whole time, and now we don't.

At the end of the war Germany still had good manufacturing capacity. The victors had 2 options - pasturialisation, obliterating that capability or harnessing it in a beneficial way. The forerunner to today's EU was set up to prevent France and Germany warring and to prevent the smaller Benelux countries being overwhelmed by those 2 large powers by giving them an influence in excess of what they could expect based on their population/economy/landmass etc..

However, it was the United Nations and NATO that were established to keep the peace - not the EU. We rarely hear much about the UN these days as the Uk has become much more EU-focused.

The EU is an empire. All empires must grow to survive. No empire ever says' I'm big enough now. I will stop growing now'. But where will the EU expand into- it can only expand into countries that other superpowers consider to be their own clients, such as the EU's active grooming of Ukraine with Millions of Euros, which is antagonising Russia.

My great fear is that the EU gains the EU Army that Junckers has stated it does 'to enforce the foreign policy of the EU'. While we re all vigorously trying to ignore the fact that the EU is actually a political union, it is already drawing up plans for an EU Army.

My feeling is that we need to get out of this situation now and send out the signal that we are not part of this EU land grab.Our leaving will diminish the EU but rather than playing into Putin's hands as Cameron tries to fear-monger, we would actually be saving the EU from it's own worst excesses and we'd be more likely to preserve peace by weakening the EU than by staying in.