Do we want an EU Army?

[SpringingIntoAction]

The President of the European Commission has said that he wants an EU Army

President Junckers said:

“You would not create a European army to use it immediately,” Juncker told the Welt am Sonntag newspaper in Germany in an interview published on Sunday.

“But a common army among the Europeans would convey to Russia that we are serious about defending the values of the European Union.”

www.theguardian.com/world/2015/mar/08/jean-claude-juncker-calls-for-eu-army-european-commission-miltary

Former British Army commander Col Richard Kemp warned against the UK joining an EU army, saying it would be giving up our country's right to self-defence

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/02/uk-would-give-up-right-to-self-defence-if-forced-to-join-europea/

The telegraph reports that Mrs Merkel has a blueprint to create a European Army and may use this in a bargaining point with the UK

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/11861247/Merkel-expects-Cameron-to-back-EU-army-in-exchange-for-renegotiation.html

Tony Blair today called for a European Army

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3401145/Tony-Blair-insists-Europe-needs-integration-revives-calls-European-army-way-confront-terror-threat-ISIS.html

The EU is already involved in military operations

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_operations_of_the_European_Union

The EU has a military training mission to Mail

www.theguardian.com/world/2016/mar/21/eus-military-mission-mali-attacked

and in the Central African Republic

www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2015/03/16-central-african-republic-eu-military-advisory-mission-gets-green-light/

It's clear the EU sees itself as much more than merely a trading organisation.

It's not just aiming for political union, but also to be become an influential military force - that is not under democratic control.

I don;t want to be part of a military bloc and political union, masquerading as a trade organisation. I want out of all that.

The EU is becoming a tyrannical monster at worse and a playground bully at best. If you leave our gang we'll beat you up. If you don't stay in our gang you'll suffer. We need to get out now. It should make up it's mind. Is it just a trading agreement or something more sinister. It's out of control and will crumble sooner or later. I think it's high time we were out.

Viviennemary hear hear.

I'm still waiting for a remainiac to tell me why they think the EU needs an army.

I'd like anyone who believes this guff about an EU Army to explain how other member states are going to agree for their soldiers to garrison e.g. Northern Ireland or the Falklands.

Also, how can this EU Army work when three member states are neutral (Ireland, Austria & Sweden).

nato.gov.si/eng/topic/national-security/neutral-status/neutral-countries/

The whole thing is typical UKIPper lies and scaremongering.

Farage lambasts the Eurocrats on the subject

"And who could forget the Eurocorps goosestepping that ghastly flag on the courtyard outside [ the Strassbourg parliament building]"

Yes it does scare me, as does the European president calling for more of it.

Frankly old bean you'd be a fool not to be scared by their military ambitions which are clear and openly stated.

I notice that you didn't answer my question, Spinflight - just wrote some scaremongering nonsense.

And the Eurocorps aren't an EU unit - it's a French/German unit that can be used by the UN and NATO just as equally as it can be used by the EU.

You really have no idea what you are talking about. This is just you working yourself into a froth over anything that has the word "Euro..." in it.

Thought I'd posted the EU Parliament decision ( which tory, labour and Liberal MEPs backed) bringing the eurocorps under the direct control of the EU...

Your question is pointless, they might be neutral as sovereign states but the EU is eating their sovereignty by the day. As it is ours.

Why goose step?

Why use the EU flag?

Why is it under the control of the EU?

Why do they need an army?

I see no link - and even if said link exists, it's meaningless because the European Parliament doesn't have the power to make that decision.

Which you'd know if you knew as much about the EU as you pretend to.

The only way your lies work Spinflight is if someone can't be bothered to spend five minutes finding stuff out for themselves on the Internet.

Just because most of us are mums doesn't mean we are stupid.

See the fourth post on the fourth page of this thread..

In principle I'd be very much in favour, but I think the EU hasn't evolved in the right way, its political expansion was too fast and shallow for it to be realistic right now. A joint army is the ultimate act of transnational trust, and I don't think we're there.

Now, if the EU develops to have a more integrated small core and some more loosely associated countries, then I could see it happen. Maybe. It'll be a tough sell in France.

I don't think people understand how quickly situations can change and what a volatile time we are living in. Nothing is certain, nothing is secure.

Why are we even talking about Turkey> Why is it even a spectre on the EU horizon?

Its because we are facing a crisis, things change, we ally ourselves with people we wouldn't normally do any deals with. Turkey holds all the aces.

Now it may be a long time off before turkey joins, it may never join but bear in mind why its even being spoken of, why people are worried.

Things change

I now see the link... and as I said, it's meaningless because the European Parliament dont have the final say.

That link lists items like "35. Is of the opinion..." and "45. Invites the Council..." - massive red flags showing they have the power to implement Jack Shit.

Typical Kipper dimwit scaremongering. Someone in Europe has an idea or says something, and bingo! in Kipperland it's law. I've had four hours sleep and a bottle f red wine and I'm still not addled enough to fall your scaremongering bullshit

"38. Proposes to place Eurocorps as a standing force under EU command and invites all Member States to contribute to it;"

The link is from the EU Parliament website. It was voted upon and approved with Labour, tory and Liberal MEPs voting in favour.

The eurocorps therefore came under EU command.

Not sure which facts you are disputing. Is the EU Parliament lying to you?

Is the EU president lying to you?

Are the easily googlable images of the Eurocorps carrying rifles, parading with the EU flag and wearing EU symbols lying to you?

Don't shoot the messenger Hugo. I find it shocking too, particularly the official denials on this side of the channel.

It's quite obvious you gave no idea how the EU works, Spindrift.

Nothing happens unless the Council puts a wet signature on the document.

This isn't the Council. It's the European Parliament.

You're basically doing the equivalent of saying that the House of Commons approving the reading of a Bill makes it law when it hasn't passed the House of Lords and received Royal Assent.

I would say "stop embarrassing yourself", but actually I want you to keep on embarrassing yourself.

Yes someone has suggested this. But I don't see much weight to this ever being a possibility. I would think other EU nations especially like France would be in favour to an EU army. I think the majority of people across Europe would be against losing their National armies and they're traditions to a EU army. Although working together with other armed forces around the world for a common interest has alway gone on.

If I was being sceptical I may suspect that the leave campaign are subtlety suggesting this is a real possibility to scare people into believing this will happen if we don't leave. I don't see much credibility in this ever happening. It is a dirty war on both sides.

I am still on the fence. Like the rest of us wading through the propaganda looking to find any tit bits of objective thinking.

Hmm no.

The commission proposes legislation. They are unelected.

The Council and parliament review it and amend it. Once this is done the parliament votes on it.

I linked to the proposal which was subsequently voted upon and approved.

Hence the eurocorps has been under EU control since.

Spinflight

The Council and parliament review it and amend it. Once this is done the parliament votes on it.

Oh dear. You can't even properly explain the process of how the EU works. No wonder you're constantly posting utter rubbish.

As I said earlier, The final approval is from the Council.

And you can't post a link to this, because this final approval doesn't exist.

What you've done is the equivalent of posting a House of Commons Early Day Motion (EDM), and are pretending it's law.

The sad fact is that you think that any body with the word "Euro..." in it is automatically an EU body.

It isn't.

Lets agree to disagree on the facts I have posted Hugo.

Please note that I haven't stated that this is an existent EU Army.

My position is that it is as close to being such that still allows a fig leaf of deniability. Goosestepping that ghastly flag outside the EU parliament building is a bit of a giveaway...

But legally our politicians can say with a straight face that it is merely a multinational armed force. That just happens to answer to an EU committee.

And proudly displays EU logos and paraphernalia.

And stands to attention when the European National Anthem is played.

"The core of a future European Army"

upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f3/Coat_of_arms_of_Eurocorps.svg/2000px-Coat_of_arms_of_Eurocorps.svg.png

"Brexit will STOP Brussels creating a ‘DANGEROUS’ EU army, senior French admirals say

LEAVING the European Union would stop Brussels bosses forming a “dangerous” EU army, two senior French admirals have said"

www.express.co.uk/news/uk/679248/Brexit-stop-Brussels-creating-dangerous-EU-army-European-Union-French-admirals-say

The plans, outlining new European military and operational structures and headquarters have been drawn up by the EU’s foreign policy chief, Federica Mogherini. The talks are shrouded in secrecy until after the referendum The policy plans will not be made public until the day after we vote.

Obviously, if the plans were likely to gain support for remain, we would be seeing those plans before we vote. I can only conclude the plans are big and will be very unpopular with the UK electorate. I want to know what they are before I cast my vote.

We've got to 6 pages of 'debate' which is really about whether we think an EU army is a good idea in principle.

As part of that, we've had schemes like EUFOR Althea panned without a single comment about what it actually is, why it was set up, its historical context and its strategic mission. (Also see EUPM ).

In dismissing its worth without discussing that, you haven't had a debate at all. You've just spouted a lot of stuff without really understanding what you are saying.

Personally, I don't have a problem with EUFOR Althea or the EUPM in any way. I think that it has its place within a relationship between the EU and Nato and individual soverign nations own armies.

I think that a move to a sole European army without Nato and abandoning individual armies would be a bad idea.

The thing is though, I find the existence of EUFOR Althea being used as an argument in this way, is both misleading and rotten to the core in the absence of discussing its role and history. It panders purely to ignorance and xenophobia.

If you want to criticise it, perhaps pointing out how its not achieving its goals and has not been as successful as its previous forms is a much stronger case to answer.

I'm not sure there has been any debate RedToothBrush.

The remain camp simply deny that the EU wants an Army despite their president calling for one and lots of men with guns under EU command goosestepping around Brussels draped in EU flags, logos and paraphernalia.

This of course is definitely not an EU army, though the eurocorps own promotional video self describes them as 'the core of a future European Army'. A very important difference.

Well, it is if you need a fig leaf of credibility to cling to.

I guess once the remain camp actually admit that the EU has military ambitions then we could have a debate.

How would an unelected EU bureaucrat wield this military force? Who exactly is he wanting to shoot? If he decided to shoot someone, and we didn't approve, how would get get rid of someone who isn't elected by us in the first place?

The hardcore remainers on Mumsnet never miss an opportunity to embarrass themselves do they?