Do we want an EU Army?

[SpringingIntoAction]

The President of the European Commission has said that he wants an EU Army

President Junckers said:

“You would not create a European army to use it immediately,” Juncker told the Welt am Sonntag newspaper in Germany in an interview published on Sunday.

“But a common army among the Europeans would convey to Russia that we are serious about defending the values of the European Union.”

www.theguardian.com/world/2015/mar/08/jean-claude-juncker-calls-for-eu-army-european-commission-miltary

Former British Army commander Col Richard Kemp warned against the UK joining an EU army, saying it would be giving up our country's right to self-defence

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/02/uk-would-give-up-right-to-self-defence-if-forced-to-join-europea/

The telegraph reports that Mrs Merkel has a blueprint to create a European Army and may use this in a bargaining point with the UK

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/11861247/Merkel-expects-Cameron-to-back-EU-army-in-exchange-for-renegotiation.html

Tony Blair today called for a European Army

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3401145/Tony-Blair-insists-Europe-needs-integration-revives-calls-European-army-way-confront-terror-threat-ISIS.html

The EU is already involved in military operations

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_operations_of_the_European_Union

The EU has a military training mission to Mail

www.theguardian.com/world/2016/mar/21/eus-military-mission-mali-attacked

and in the Central African Republic

www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2015/03/16-central-african-republic-eu-military-advisory-mission-gets-green-light/

It's clear the EU sees itself as much more than merely a trading organisation.

It's not just aiming for political union, but also to be become an influential military force - that is not under democratic control.

I don;t want to be part of a military bloc and political union, masquerading as a trade organisation. I want out of all that.

The soldiers themselves wouldn't go for it. We swear an oath of allegiance to the Queen and are proud of our Royal Regiments and their history. Our differing capbadges set us aside from most of the military from other countries - soldiers are loyal to the Queen, their Regiment, their comrades. This is just scaremongering and will NOT happen.

Springing I suggest you go to the NATO website, download the Sec Gens latest report and have a good look at the defence spend of the various EU member States, barring the UK and Poland. The money isn't there in defence, nor is there the will for it to be. European defence is guaranteed by NATO, and bankrolled by the U.S.

My dh helped draft the CSDP, when he was seconded to the EUMS. He now works at the real defence organisation in Brussels, and as he points out, this story regularly reappears, but when it comes to it, the money, personnel and materiel just isn't there. How is the EU going to lay claim to our Trident boats for example? How are they going to get hold of our destroyers? Where is the infrastructure for the EU Army? Will it be all the personnel in all the armies of the EU Member States? How will this affect NATO membership?

I will be voting out as well, and don't want to see the EU have a freestanding military. I think you are overegging the pudding a tad. Op Atalanta for example is run out of Nortwood, which is both a Brit and a NATO base as the EU doesn't have a maritime capability. This Op is run alongside the U.S. and NATO Ops in the same area.

Merkel raises this when she is up to something else. There will be stiff opposition, as many EU member States consider defence a national capability. It isn't the EU running reassurance air patrols over the Baltic States is it? It's NATO. The EU would need deep pockets, which it doesn't have, to even start to reproduce what NATO can.

Meant Northwood, nor Nortwood.

Scary, as someone with over 30 years in defence I agree with you. I do not want to see any degradation in NATO which I believe has kept us safe since WW2.

BUT - the EU has a habit of getting what the EU wants and it is Junckers who is calling for an EU army.

Handing over your defence to the EU could seem quite attractive to some of the poorer countries in the EU, especially if the US does reduce its contributions to NATO. The Eastern Europeans would be less likely to do so as they see NATO as the gold standard in providing their protection against Russia and are somewhat suspicious of the EU.

Yes, I agree there would be huge questions to resolve and huge integration problems but NATO performs effectively with the armed forces of separate nations that can be brought together when needed. There would even be opportunities to rationalise duplicate capabilities across the EU, so the costs may reduce.

If the US does withdraw from NATO and Turkey receives EU membership then you have an entity that is ripe for rebadging as an EU Armed Force.

And even if we in the UK decide not to join, we''ll be told that we are safer, stronger better in a single EU Army - and the public will probably buy it, just like they are buying this round of Project Fear.

I think it will happen eventually. The EU already has its eyes on our seat on the UN Security Council. It's all part of the creeping stealth of a the progressive common defence policy that agreed by the Lisbon Treaty.

As for 'the armed forces will never accept it as they swear an oath to the Queen'

What can they do if a future rabidly EUphile Government hands them over to the EU Army - stage a coup?

I expect the EU will still allow them to swear an allegiance to the Queen. It will be seen as a quaint ceremonial throwback rather than a real oath of fealty. But it will be the EU hat will be deploying their EU Army. in defence of EU interests and to expand the EU empire.

And that has always worried me.

If this isn't a big wake up call for anyone with doubts about voting OUT or REMAIN then I don't know what is.

The EU was set up to help each of the countries trade with each other. Now look at it, it has it's own flag and getting it's own army and this was decided by WHO?

The EU is run for and by the Elites, they care nothing for you and never will.

It really is an Orwellian nightmare.

"You can't have 28 armies all with allegiances to different Heads of State when you have a single EU army."

Heads of State will be the next thing to go, "You don't need your heads of state, you only need us, your glorious EU Comrades"

I am all for the united states of Europe. So 1 military, fiscal and partly political union.

Don't worry, it is not going to happen.

Orwellian is an apt description.

I agree, a trading organisation does not need an army - countries need armies.

Many who say we should REMAIN in the EU try to insist that the EU will never be a country or a single political union - but we can all see the EU is actually a superstate masquerading as a trading organisation.

Heads of State will be the next thing to go, "You don't need your heads of state, you only need us, your glorious EU Comrades"

They will probably keep them for ceremonial purposes but the real power is already trickling away from them towards the EU. Laws that are given Royal Assent by the Queen can now be over-turned by the European Court of Justice. When your laws can be over-turned by a superior power, you no longer live in a fully sovereign country.

What many people have not yet woken up to is that fact that the EU sees everyone within the EU as equal citizens of the EU and every piece of land belonging to those EU member countries as one single EU territory.

That's why, under EU law, British people cannot be treated more favourably in Britain by their British Government - all 550 EU citizens must be treated equally.

That's why every EU citizen has the right to live anywhere within that EU territory, (which includes Britain) and have equal access to healthcare in Britain that the British do, and have equal access to social housing and any benefits that British people have access to.

In short - there is no such thing (other than in descriptive terms) as being British, in British any more.

A British person in Britain, is just an EU citizen who happens to be living in the western sector of the EU territory that you must share will any EU citizens who may wish to come and live in that same EU territory with you.

Once you understand that you realise that the EU is an empire, and Britain is just one of its outposts.

Some people may be comfortable with that. I am not. I want to LEAVE.

It's nice to find someone who agrees.

Without sounding patronising to anyone, if you haven't read Orwell's 1984 then I'd really recommend it.

Voting to leave on the 23rd June really is a vote for freedom and democracy I fear that should we remain, all is lost.

Too much Kafka is never enough.

However, the socio-political structure in 1984 is what is metamorphising before us.

However, the socio-political structure in 1984 is what is metamorphising before us

It is.

What can they do if a future rabidly EUphile Government hands them over to the EU Army - stage a coup?

They will leave. As the MOD discovered when it started spending more on civil servants than on the military. And as they are doing now, in droves, as pay, pension and jobs are being eroded.

Soldiers will not sign up to a EU Army. They won't leave behind 100s of years of Regimental history and pride to salute a Euro civilian.

On this one listen to scary. She knows what she is talking about

I am always astonished that those who complain loudest about potential migrant flows to the EU fail to see the benefit of concerted EU action to help stabilise those countries on the EU periphery and make them better places to live.

They will leave. As the MOD discovered when it started spending more on civil servants than on the military. And as they are doing now, in droves, as pay, pension and jobs are being eroded.

Music to my ears. I saw first hand the erosion of pensions and opportunities for promotion as well as the assault on allowances.

Soldiers will not sign up to a EU Army. They won't leave behind 100s of years of Regimental history and pride to salute a Euro civilian.

I would hope so.

But if the EU wants an EU-wide Army and some future UK PM thinks its a good idea and UK forces personnel would resign rather than participate hen the EU will have to conscript them, or place the UK under EU Army occupation.

@Springing: Eu army of occupation in UK

Only if you've never actually read the book

In what way am I wrong?

What the EU Army will be used for is this:

We face years of having our freedoms suppressed. Rioting and demonstration will be rife around Europe (Portugal, Italy and Spain are next). These protests will have to be put down. There is a significant chance that the local Police/Army will identify and sympathise with the protesters and even join them.

When this scenario comes into effect the EU Army will be drafted in to take control of the streets. Belgian Troopers aren't going to identify with Portugese farmers, etc, etc and will find it easier to crack heads.

MrSnow

I think you're absolutely correct. I don't care about immigration and I recognise that a leave vote will lead to economic poverty and a loss of geopolitical status, but I don't want our soldiers obligated to impose peace in Europe a third time.

To be honest, I wouldn't mind an EU army, or even a more integrated EU, if the military establishments of other nations weren't so incredibly incompetent. But the EU will never be able to reform it's political and social culture in such a way as to present a credible threat to, say, Russia. As it's soft power erodes it will be left as a big, weak, obvious target even with a paper tiger EU force. Better to disassociate now than tie ourselves to weak allies.

Yet, NATO is relatively strong and is respected by Russia.

So one has to ask, why do they want to create an EU Army?

Very valid concerns MrSnow and Springing, particularly about how future politicians could have a rather different outlook on these issues than we currently have. "It would never happen here" doesn't mean it can't.

So one has to ask, why do they want to create an EU Army?

MrSnow

The EU is an empire.

Empire's need to protect what they own.

All empires need to expand - as the EU is doing.

Empires need to fight other empires to increase their size - the EU is grooming the Ukraine with millions in development grants to woo it from Russia.

That's why the EU needs an EU Army.

To protect and grow its empire.

I want no part of that.

The EU was set up to help each of the countries trade with each other.

Not exclusively. Archives & the leaflets sent to every household during the 1975 referendum made it quite clear that joining the EEC was more than just a trading block.

In short - there is no such thing (other than in descriptive terms) as being British, in British any more.

Being in the EU doesn’t make the French less French or the Germans less German. Nor does it make us any less British. - Margaret Thatcher 1975

Yet, NATO is relatively strong and is respected by Russia.

But with the prospect of someone like Trump becoming president & Commander-in-Chief can NATO & the US financial support it receives be relied upon indefinitely?

So one has to ask, why do they want to create an EU Army?

The arguments are it will show the world that there would never again be a war between EU countries & NATO is not enough since many of its members are outside the continent.