Do we want an EU Army?

[SpringingIntoAction]

The President of the European Commission has said that he wants an EU Army

President Junckers said:

“You would not create a European army to use it immediately,” Juncker told the Welt am Sonntag newspaper in Germany in an interview published on Sunday.

“But a common army among the Europeans would convey to Russia that we are serious about defending the values of the European Union.”

www.theguardian.com/world/2015/mar/08/jean-claude-juncker-calls-for-eu-army-european-commission-miltary

Former British Army commander Col Richard Kemp warned against the UK joining an EU army, saying it would be giving up our country's right to self-defence

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/02/uk-would-give-up-right-to-self-defence-if-forced-to-join-europea/

The telegraph reports that Mrs Merkel has a blueprint to create a European Army and may use this in a bargaining point with the UK

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/11861247/Merkel-expects-Cameron-to-back-EU-army-in-exchange-for-renegotiation.html

Tony Blair today called for a European Army

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3401145/Tony-Blair-insists-Europe-needs-integration-revives-calls-European-army-way-confront-terror-threat-ISIS.html

The EU is already involved in military operations

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_operations_of_the_European_Union

The EU has a military training mission to Mail

www.theguardian.com/world/2016/mar/21/eus-military-mission-mali-attacked

and in the Central African Republic

www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2015/03/16-central-african-republic-eu-military-advisory-mission-gets-green-light/

It's clear the EU sees itself as much more than merely a trading organisation.

It's not just aiming for political union, but also to be become an influential military force - that is not under democratic control.

I don;t want to be part of a military bloc and political union, masquerading as a trade organisation. I want out of all that.

Can I ask a genuine question ? Taking a couple of assumptions to answer my point , the main being that the EU battlegroup is a possibility.....would it not be unwise to leave the EU then ? As much as we would save money and resources my assumption is the EU army would be larger and more resourced than the UK? Would that not put us at a military risk?

This really is a genuine question because I am trying to understand the issues to decide how to vote ....I'm honestly not making a point I'm wondering if my perspective is flawed in a way I don't realise as I may not have pertinent information....so what do you think?

The eurocorps is beholden to a 28 state council with an unelected head which we have no recourse to understand their palnning, aims or intentions who we do not vote for and whom most people don't even know the names of the people on that council. Or as we know it, NATO.

It is a NATO-led organisation, not an EU one.

It came under direct EU control in 2008 unexpsoc.

See paragraph 38.

eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CELEX:52008IP0255&qid=1464861971255&from=EN

"Would that not put us at a military risk?"

Not in the short or medium term. I worry about what the EU wants with an army but not about whether they would use one on us.

If the EU actually had an army, or any competent approach to security and defence, I wouldn't be supporting a British exit.

As it is, we're tied to weak allies in a dissolving alliance. If massive civil unrest explodes, or even war, our forces will be dragged in to try and suppress it, as we always have been. A little distance will allow us to decide if and when to intervene and on what terms.

To be fair Meph the lack of such is actually our fault.

Defence is our strongest suit yet we have comprehensively wasted the influence we could have had over the direction of EU defence policy. We haven't showed leadership and instead allowed the EU to dictate terms.

Those who argue we have influence in Europe forget that we often waste it.

Hell if we are going to be committed to ever closer union then an EU army is a logical outcome. We could have lead it instead of denying that it will ever exist.

Note unexpsoc that Liberal, labour and tory MEPs all voted in favour of the eurocorps coming under EU control.

There were very few votes against in the EU Parliament, so anyone who claims the is no appetite in Europe for an EU army hasn't consulted with the MEPs, including our own!!

It may have done legally spinflight, but that does not make it a worry. In order to perform any form of military operation you need logistical support, intelligence, movement capability, clear political will etc. etc. etc.

It is nothing to worry about, and certainly not a proto-army of any sort.

Are you mad?

Lol

Regularly.

So we shouldn't worry as it is only legally under the control of the EU.

Call me stupid by all means but when 65000 men with rifles wearing uniforms which proudly show the EU emblem start marching around under EU orders how is this not an EU army?

As for political will, see Mr Junker. He seems to have a great deal of political will.

Also these are 65000 infantry. The support forces you mention arent included in the total. By comparison the British army has about 16000 infantry.

an EU army will give control of UK armed forces to Brussels they will order our armed forces to do whatever they like e.g. most likely a war with Russia. If we lose control of our armed forces we are in serious trouble

Even if we don't lose control of our own armed forces we are in trouble.

We'll end up paying for theirs, if we veto anything they will just do it without us and we'll end up with no way of holding those who wield military force to account.

Could someone from the remain camp explain to me why the EU needs an an army at all?

"when 65000 men with rifles wearing uniforms which proudly show the EU emblem start marching around under EU orders how is this not an EU army?"

They are hiding in plain sight Spinflight.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/09/it-is-an-eu-army-that-could-bring-about-war/

"It will be denied that our forces will be handed over to the Brussels high command. But remember it was never explained to the British people that our Parliament would be subordinated to a union that today hands down over half our laws, regulates our day-to-day activities, and can override the highest courts in the land."

There isn't even much attempt to hide the military ambitions of the EU. The presidents comments are widely reported, the formations and structure easily available via Google.

And yet Cameron happily raises the spectre of ww3 as part of project fear....

So. 65000 infantry.

How much transportation do they have (or are they going to march from one end of Europe to the other)? It's a big fucking place the world.

Do they have any artillery or armour support?

What about logistics - unless this vicious EU army is going to just rape and rob it's way from country to country (people might get the hump with that though)? Fuel? Food?

What about air support - tends to be quite important in modern warfare?

Who are they going to target and how? Intelligence services feeding them are they? What about intelligence assets - you know for reconnaissance etc. They could always rely on google earth, I suppose (sometimes feels like the americans do that anyway).

A bunch of men in uniform do not make an effective fighting force. Otherwise Morris Dancing would have been outlawed years ago.

I am not doubting what Juncker might want - I haven't a clue. But this isn't it.

And as for taking control of our armed forces - you honestly think the US (sorry, I mean NATO) is going to give us up to somebody else to control?

No I don't have mental health issues in response to your earlier question - I am just not a reactionary paranoid trying to whip up hatred and worry on the basis of something I don't know very much about. Is there anybody on the forum who might fit that description?

I think they will make an army, and then once they get their war with Russia, conscription will be rolled out.

Tell you what, you tell us why your beloved EU needs an army and we'll decide from there whether there is any need to worry.

"Tell you what, you tell us why your beloved EU needs an army and we'll decide from there whether there is any need to worry."

I have never argued that we do need one - so why would I do that? I have consistently argued that this isn't one.

OK, not sure you are making much sense but I'll humour you..

Forgetting the eurocorps and European battlegroups. Let's pretend they don't exist as it doesn't fit with your blinkered perceptions.

Why is the president of the EU calling for a European army and what does he intend to use it for?

"OK, not sure you are making much sense but I'll humour you.. "

How very kind of you to lower yourself. Probably going to leave this here - you have started to play the man not the ball.

Not playing the man at all unexpsoc, in fact I'm trying to make it easier for you.

You don't deny the facts, and anyone who Googled "eurocorps cap badge" could see the EU symbolism for themselves.

You don't deny Junker's call to arms. You don't even deny the numbers of troops involved.

Your position though appears to be that it isn't something we should worry about.

My only request was that you explain to us what the EU needs an army for so that we could decide for ourselves whether we should bother our pretty little heads with such things.

Have I been unreasonable here?

"My only request was that you explain to us what the EU needs an army for so that we could decide for ourselves whether we should bother our pretty little heads with such things. "

I don't have a view as to why they need it. Macho posturing perhaps?

Not sure where the "pretty little heads" thing came in. I assume you are trying to suggest that I am being condescending and possibly sexist. I am not. I am just trying to stop people jumping to the wrong conclusions about what the Eurocorps can actually do, based on a very limited knowledge of military matters. You have repeatedly said we should be worried about the Eurocorps. Why?

Macho posturing...

Maybe you are right. Personally I don't like macho posturing.

What worries me is that there is no accountability in the EU. We can't sack Junker and noone voted for him.

This is the same chap who said we would be punished as traitors if we left the EU.

Do you think he is a fit person to even hold office?

Do you trust him to wield military power in our names?

www.politico.eu/article/waging-war-on-the-myth-of-an-eu-army-referendum-britain-brexit-debate/

"The upcoming EU Global Strategy could lay the groundwork for another attempt to revive the EU’s defense role, and it may well feature the creation of permanent military headquarters. But it will remain a “strategic reflection,” not a call for an EU army. EU leaders will no doubt endorse it — but only after a unanimous vote. Ironically, if the U.K. is serious about preventing a stronger EU defense role, it will have to stay in the Union to veto its creation."

Lol,

So we have to stay in the EU in order to veto a European Army. Surprised that remain haven't tried that one! Setting up a permanent military headquarters ( already exists, the eurocorps has a permanent HQ with 1000 officers) is merely a 'strategic reflection'.

What is a strategic reflection? Anyone know?

If I set up my own court is that merely a judicial reflection? How about if I declare myself King of my cul de sac, P* Square? A monarchic reflection?

There is no appetite for an EU army, yet all leaders will endorse it 'after a unanimous vote'!

Oh the joys of EU doublespeak.

No.