"Man in ladies loo (with little daughter)" - and separately "Man in ladies loo (with wife with dementia)"

[ThisGreenMoose]

Hello. 1st time poster. Part of this thread has already been discussed in great detail two years ago (www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4935748-man-in-ladies-loo-with-little-daughter?reply=130518972), however the world has significantly changed in the past two years so I'm interested to see people's opinions now, plus further down I ask in relation to my mother with dementia.

I'm a man (early 40's), I have a 2 1/2 year old daughter, and I typically do all the shopping. I was in big Tesco's yesterday and unfortunately just before going to the checkout, my (recently potty trained) daughter told me she needed a wee. With a full trolley I knew I couldn't ask her to wait to check out and get home, so we trundled off to the toilets (leaving trolley with security).

The men's toilets were like ones at Glastonbury at the end of the weekend. My fellow man is (quite fairly) not generally known for being hygienic nor courteous to those using facilities after themselves, and whilst I can put up with it for myself when needed, now I had to get my daughter through there as cleanly as possible.

The floor was wet, bog roll everywhere, unflushed toilets, seats down with wee on them. My daughter was trying to touch anything she could, which made things somewhat difficult whilst carrying her (to keep her from getting wet feet) cleaning the seat, unpacking/unfolding the portable mini seat, getting her to do the business and cleanly out of there. Told my wife of the ordeal when home who just asked why I didn't use the women's toilets, and she said no woman would mind all things considered.

To be honest I wouldn't dare go in the women's toilets. I am well aware of the reputation of men generally, and I absolutely agree with women having a safe space. I'd hate for a woman or girl to feel uncomfortable or threatened by my presence. I'm a bit of a closet feminist.

However, with my wife's opinion shared, and had the men's been worse or engaged, would you say it would be fair or right for me to go in the women's toilets? Or can you suggest anything I could do differently?

Separately, but on partly the same topic, my mother has dementia (FTD) and is currently capable of using the toilet herself, but my family know she is not far off progressing to the point where she will need care. Our father / her husband is caring for her at the moment.

I'm sure there will be a time soon when she is caught short whilst out and about, and my father will need to help her (or myself if I'm looking after her). Should he/I be going into the women's toilet with her, or take her into the men's? I suppose as she has a hidden disability she could genuinely use the disabled toilet if there was one.

Interested to hear people's opinions. Thanks

Advice your dad to buy radar key over Amazon or somewhere else, I’m sure dementia nurse will be able to advice him. In this case he would be able to use any disabled toilets as some need a radar key.
You: plan in advance, have wipes with you or use accessible toilet. But mainly plan.

If your child was a boy, and the men’s loos were still manky, which would you use? There’s your answer. Go in the men’s.

Re: Tesco toilets, I think it’s ok to open the door and shout in a very loud voice, I’m a dad with my daughter and the men’s is filthy is it ok for me to bring in her in here. I personally wouldn’t mind but some would.

However with your mother def disabled. You need the space and it’s totally valid to use.

Doesn’t negate the validity of my beliefs. Have a day off.

I did mean to wait while anyone in had left and not letting anyone in while he was in there in unless they had no objection. Talking about supermarket toilets when there’s only 2 or 3. Can’t actually see any harm with that

No it isn't OK.

He needs to take her in the gents. And he needs to then complain to staff about the awful state of the gents.

Using the women's isn't the answer.

I think 70 is too slow on motorways, should I have a day off obeying the speed limit?
I will never have a day off definding womens rights
Why don't you try having a day on?

No.

You might be fine, and you might decide to let the man in, but what about the other women in there who aren't happy?

You can't consent on behalf of other women.

The world hasn't changed, except people on mumsnet being obsessed with thinking it has, one way or another eyerolls

You use the accessible and/or baby change room. Or, as you have a recently toilet-trained child, you'll be carrying around a change of clothes with plenty of dettol wipes and probably a travel loo seat - you can pop that on a toilet in the mens'. Job done.

Told my wife of the ordeal when home who just asked why I didn't use the women's toilets, and she said no woman would mind all things considered.

Does your wife not use Mumsnet or read anything recently about men in women’s toilets? Of course women will mind so even with all things considered in that situation you stick to the men’s. With your mum you go to the disabled toilet.

Your wife is wrong. Take your child into the toilet that you should be using. Personally, I wouldn't mind but many people do and you need to be mindful of that.

And the person that needs the carer because they have dementia should use the disabled toilets.

I've had to use the toilet in Tesco's occasionally. Trust me the ladies are pretty grim too.

Nobody is going to prosecute a parent taking their 2.5 year old into the toilet of the opposite sex. Just like nobody would prosecute you for driving at 71 MPH.

I am in the fortunate position of never having been given cause to fear men. I still don’t want them in the Ladies toilets.
My objection is mostly logistical. The amount of women accompanying children still exceeds men. Of necessity this means that generally speaking children of both sexes accompany women into the Ladies toilets up to the age of at least 7.
This is a contributing factor to the queues.
We don’t need any more pressure on the limited resources unless planners start to incorporate a more sensible division of facilities.

I’m not attempting too - I’m just saying I wouldn’t object in the circumstances.

Take some wipes to clean the men’s, or dangle her over the men’s toilet. Women’s toilets can be equally manky.

Its inappropriate to use the women’s, as others have said.

It’s inappropriate and happened to me recently where I was in the ladies when a man came in with his daughter and I felt uncomfortable as it was such a small confined space. His partner/wife was stood outside so no idea why she didn’t accompany the child, or why he didn’t take her into the gents.

Thanks to all the posters with constructive comments. Good thoughts and very much appreciated. Several of you have noted that if my child was a boy then the men's would be just as disgusting which is of course correct. However I asked because my daughter is a girl which pertains to the question.

For the cynical and sarcastic comments:

• Situation isn't fabricated and I'm not goading.
• The disabled toilet yesterday had a broken door lock, but I wouldn't have considered taking my 'DD' in there anyway as she's not disabled. The baby change facility didn't have a toilet.
• Re my mother, on mentioning the disabled toilet in original post I did say 'if there was one'. I could have phrased that a bit better but asking re men's or women's for her (if disabled is unavailable) is a fair question.
• I said in my post "To be honest I wouldn't dare go in the women's toilets. I am well aware of the reputation of men generally, and I absolutely agree with women having a safe space. I'd hate for a woman or girl to feel uncomfortable or threatened by my presence". A lot of the replies must've ignored this bit (as one reply even said I was bullying women). I asked the post as a result of my wife saying she thought it was ok.

I think the safest option here (when I again have no option but to take my DD shopping) is to take a portable potty which my DD can use in the boot of the car (if needs be).

I do and so do lots of others. You don't get to decide on their behalf.

And no, shouting first and asking if it's ok isn't a solution because you've put people in an awkward situation where they fear confrontation if they say no. Some of whom may be children.

If there are disabled/accessible toilets available they are the best option. However, if there are no accessible facilities available, I would say exactly the same as your wife.

Men’s toilets are usually vile and it’s not practical to juggle “cleaning” the seat etc and minimising child’s contact with all the surfaces there. I often suggest parents with male or female small child use the female toilets.

@ThisGreenMoose

The safest option is to use the men’s toilets. You should not ask your daughter to use a potty in public. How long would that even be a solution for? Certainly not an option for a school aged child. And relies on you always having a car with you and never straying more than a few minutes from it. Peeing in the car is bizarre, undignified and only an option in a tiny handful of scenarios.

You did the right thing, and your wife doesn’t speak for other women. It sounds like you managed really well.

With your mother, it would be absolutely appropriate to use a disabled lavatory.

Campaign for more disabled access and family loos. If men asked once or twice, some might actually appear.

If a lot of men weren’t pigs, both in terms of disgusting loos, and in terms of attacking women and children then none of this would actually matter.

OP i recommend the potette... its a foldable potty/toilet seat you put on top of a regular one. At least then you know the surface she's sitting on is clean.

As others have said, it is not appropriate for a dad to use the women’s toilets with a daughter or son.

Unisex parent and child toilets would be ok.

OP’s gut reaction was right on this occasion.

i agree public toilets are pretty vile, I hated that stage when our dc’s were always needing them.

Disabled toilet in both circumstances.
When i had a new baby and a toddler with no one to help me i would take them both into a disabled toilet - problem solved , if i ever offended someone which i don't believe i did ,tough .