"Man in ladies loo (with little daughter)" - and separately "Man in ladies loo (with wife with dementia)"

[ThisGreenMoose]

Hello. 1st time poster. Part of this thread has already been discussed in great detail two years ago (www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4935748-man-in-ladies-loo-with-little-daughter?reply=130518972), however the world has significantly changed in the past two years so I'm interested to see people's opinions now, plus further down I ask in relation to my mother with dementia.

I'm a man (early 40's), I have a 2 1/2 year old daughter, and I typically do all the shopping. I was in big Tesco's yesterday and unfortunately just before going to the checkout, my (recently potty trained) daughter told me she needed a wee. With a full trolley I knew I couldn't ask her to wait to check out and get home, so we trundled off to the toilets (leaving trolley with security).

The men's toilets were like ones at Glastonbury at the end of the weekend. My fellow man is (quite fairly) not generally known for being hygienic nor courteous to those using facilities after themselves, and whilst I can put up with it for myself when needed, now I had to get my daughter through there as cleanly as possible.

The floor was wet, bog roll everywhere, unflushed toilets, seats down with wee on them. My daughter was trying to touch anything she could, which made things somewhat difficult whilst carrying her (to keep her from getting wet feet) cleaning the seat, unpacking/unfolding the portable mini seat, getting her to do the business and cleanly out of there. Told my wife of the ordeal when home who just asked why I didn't use the women's toilets, and she said no woman would mind all things considered.

To be honest I wouldn't dare go in the women's toilets. I am well aware of the reputation of men generally, and I absolutely agree with women having a safe space. I'd hate for a woman or girl to feel uncomfortable or threatened by my presence. I'm a bit of a closet feminist.

However, with my wife's opinion shared, and had the men's been worse or engaged, would you say it would be fair or right for me to go in the women's toilets? Or can you suggest anything I could do differently?

Separately, but on partly the same topic, my mother has dementia (FTD) and is currently capable of using the toilet herself, but my family know she is not far off progressing to the point where she will need care. Our father / her husband is caring for her at the moment.

I'm sure there will be a time soon when she is caught short whilst out and about, and my father will need to help her (or myself if I'm looking after her). Should he/I be going into the women's toilet with her, or take her into the men's? I suppose as she has a hidden disability she could genuinely use the disabled toilet if there was one.

Interested to hear people's opinions. Thanks

And I don't frame it as a "privilege reserved for women now afforded to men at a woman’s expense" - what a weird take.

I "frame" it as a shared and necessary female resource that women mostly treat with respect which is why it's usually more pleasant than the men's.

We aren't "privileged" to have nicer facilities, we create them. Which men have entirely within their power to do as well, but seem to have an enormous blind spot about.

I used to work on building sites, in the days when women were very rarely on site, so no ladies loos (or the site office staff locked them when they went home). I tried not to but if desperate would use the men's, usually absolutely foul. If possible I would get a man to guard the door for me! Porta loos also foul, but at least no one can come in.

A loo which has a radar key is clearly explicitly only for people with disabilities (with or without a carer).
In the case of a man caring for a wife with dementia I would hope he’d be able to obtain a key but I don’t know how the system works.

Yes I understand, but often in these cases IME the changing table is situated in the ladies. (Im not saying men should therefore use the ladies.)

Worse than merely being "petty" is that women who object are "Unkind."

I can't help but wonder, based on how powerfully they feel the Kind need to scold the Unkind women on this thread, how the Kind ladies would actually react IRL if any woman in the loos actually dared to speak up and tell the Luvverly Caring Daddy that she doesn't want him to come in.

"Oh, OK, of course your veto counts, one NO overrides all the Kind YESes," or "What an Unkind creature who wants to make a tiny helpless child and her loving papa suffer needlessly"?

Oh and the individual gets a key which carers can obviously use for their benefit - a bit blue a blue badge. DSS’ Mum has a little wallet with all these things in which travel around with DSS.

Agree that if there's a disabled loo for mum, that's the best option.

For little girl, I personally wouldn't have an issue with a dad bringing his young daughter into the ladies, but I know a lot would feel uncomfortable. If there's no family/baby changing toilet available, and the men's loos are a bit rank, I'd just opt for disabled loo again. You're not gonna be in there for long, and I'm sure most would be understanding of the situation.

Anywhere which only has a changing table in the ladies loo needs to sort themself out. Ideally with a family loo if there’s space but otherwise somewhere a man is allowed to be. It’s sex discrimination otherwise, deleterious to both men and women in different ways.

But it would be no different for a little boy putting his hands in wee, but presumably you’re not suggesting a dad takes a toddler son into the ladies?

And actually some ladies loos can be pretty grim 😂

This isn’t true. You can definitely still edit if someone posts after you.

It doesn’t really matter why you edited it, I just wanted to clarify for anyone reading that my response was given to your 2 small sentences, not the 2 paragraphs that came after.

No it wouldn’t - I’ve said upthread I feel uncomfortable with my boys in the men’s anyway. But I don’t have a perfect solution and don’t profess that using the ladies is one either.

And agree - loos are grim, If it’s private enough to do so I think the hedge/wild wee is more hygienic - obviously not at big Tescos.

Accessible/disabled loo for both but frankly I wouldn't bat an eyelid if a man called into the ladies and asked if it was ok to come in with a small girl as the mens rooms were disgusting. Most women's loos in the UK are not like American stalls which may as well have no door on them at all.

What is he has a small boy?

Even small boys being potty trained can pee standing up. Ish.

Granted they’ll probably contribute to the mess, they won’t have to sit in it.

And if the small boy needs a poo?

Then his dad can clean up the cubical for him like women have to do when the ladies is dirty. I don't care if he has a girl, a boy or a fucking zebra, he is a man and should be in the men's. The child goes in the appropriate toilet for the parent they are with until they're old enough to go in alone.