"Man in ladies loo (with little daughter)" - and separately "Man in ladies loo (with wife with dementia)"

[ThisGreenMoose]

Hello. 1st time poster. Part of this thread has already been discussed in great detail two years ago (www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4935748-man-in-ladies-loo-with-little-daughter?reply=130518972), however the world has significantly changed in the past two years so I'm interested to see people's opinions now, plus further down I ask in relation to my mother with dementia.

I'm a man (early 40's), I have a 2 1/2 year old daughter, and I typically do all the shopping. I was in big Tesco's yesterday and unfortunately just before going to the checkout, my (recently potty trained) daughter told me she needed a wee. With a full trolley I knew I couldn't ask her to wait to check out and get home, so we trundled off to the toilets (leaving trolley with security).

The men's toilets were like ones at Glastonbury at the end of the weekend. My fellow man is (quite fairly) not generally known for being hygienic nor courteous to those using facilities after themselves, and whilst I can put up with it for myself when needed, now I had to get my daughter through there as cleanly as possible.

The floor was wet, bog roll everywhere, unflushed toilets, seats down with wee on them. My daughter was trying to touch anything she could, which made things somewhat difficult whilst carrying her (to keep her from getting wet feet) cleaning the seat, unpacking/unfolding the portable mini seat, getting her to do the business and cleanly out of there. Told my wife of the ordeal when home who just asked why I didn't use the women's toilets, and she said no woman would mind all things considered.

To be honest I wouldn't dare go in the women's toilets. I am well aware of the reputation of men generally, and I absolutely agree with women having a safe space. I'd hate for a woman or girl to feel uncomfortable or threatened by my presence. I'm a bit of a closet feminist.

However, with my wife's opinion shared, and had the men's been worse or engaged, would you say it would be fair or right for me to go in the women's toilets? Or can you suggest anything I could do differently?

Separately, but on partly the same topic, my mother has dementia (FTD) and is currently capable of using the toilet herself, but my family know she is not far off progressing to the point where she will need care. Our father / her husband is caring for her at the moment.

I'm sure there will be a time soon when she is caught short whilst out and about, and my father will need to help her (or myself if I'm looking after her). Should he/I be going into the women's toilet with her, or take her into the men's? I suppose as she has a hidden disability she could genuinely use the disabled toilet if there was one.

Interested to hear people's opinions. Thanks

You have been conditioned, despite feeling uncomfortable, you felt you couldn’t refuse.

So what are you talking about the child would have wet themselves for?

“Would have” being critical here - I was responding to the hypothetical situation I was asked to.

Right, so was I. And in that hypothetical where at the end you said ‘what else is there to do?’, my response was use the men’s.

The men’s wasn’t suitable for use, although OP did. That’s the whole premise of this thread.

You were asking how I would have responded in very specific circumstances having provided the first part of the fictional dialogue. I don’t think it sounds like the little girl would have been capable of holding her wee whilst the fictional dialogue you set out took place. So my response wouldn’t have made any difference really - the opportunity to use the toilet would have been missed.

Would you like to provide another fictional, hypothetical dialogue for very specific comment?

But you were giving a hypothetical scenario, which I responded to. You can’t then jump back into reality to counter my comment about the hypothetical. It made no sense.

But that’s a man problem. The answer isn’t to expect women to allow a man into a space where he legally shouldn’t be.

The primary answer is for the op to complain about the state of the men’s.

carry a portapotty instead of a big seat reducer so that he can toilet his daughter in the baby change area.

Use an accessible toilet that is also designated as baby change (which is what my big Tesco has)

It is not for him to go into the ladies.

The men's obviously was suitable for use. Hence OP and all the men managed to use it. He would have preferred to use the nice clean ladies - does not mean the men's was unsuitable.

Just quoting this comment to point out when I responded to it previously it was 2 small sentences and you have since gone in and edited in 2 whole paragraphs.

I replied to the 2 small sentences. I won’t waste my time any further by going in and editing my post or even trying to respond to the whole added text. You are twisting yourself quite a bit here to prove, well nothing really.

I thought the edit feature was for typos btw

You can only edit if there’s no posts after yours. So you must have crossed with mine.

I pressed send too quickly as was interrupted by DC getting ready for school, hence edited as I’m able to.

no - I said “in this scenario” I was applying your question to the facts at play here.

In my local Waitrose when I’ve done this they just close them! Apparently they do t have a cleaner on site. I complained to the manager and said this isn’t good enough. However, I don’t bother reporting now as I feel I’d rather people had the option of a dirty loo than nothing - sometimes in a desperate situation I would just put up with it.

I agree re the accessible loos - though if you are a carer at all you’ll know most require radar keys now. So the assumption they’re just available isn’t always accurate. My DSS has a radar key because they’re disabled, but I don’t feel comfortable using that for kids.

I wonder how far the entitlement extends.

"My car had no petrol so I had to take my neighbour's"

"My desk was too messy so I used yours"

"The away team changing rooms were dirty so we used the home team's instead"

All ridiculous, right?

But somehow "the men's toilet was yucky so I used the women's" is fine.

I know, I know. Why are women being so petty about this, right?

Because as long as men have the easy fix of taking from women they aren't motivated to sort out the real problem which is male behaviour and/or lack of facilities for fathers. And women-only resources become "women only between the times a man needs them"

You shouldn’t use it if it’s a disabled toilet (which it is if it has a radar key). But I’m talking about the ones in my big Tesco which are disabled and baby change in together.

@FlirtsWithRhinos the extension of the logic depends on how you frame it to begin with. If you frame it as a privilege reserved for women now afforded to men at a woman’s expense then sure. But if you view a little girl who’s potty training and needs a wee, and sympathise with how uncomfortable it is when your small child puts their hands all over a piss sodden toilet seat then maybe not. Is using a clean toilet a privilege reserved for adult women? Or does it also extend to children.

There’s so many variables. People seem to assume this was a bustling toilet. In reality it was probably empty anyway.

But the man had a portable toilet seat so she didn’t need to touch the toilet seat in the men’s ?

Her dad is incapable of wiping a seat?

Yes I agree - my point was just that the ability to use them has diminished significantly in the past few years with the introduction of radar keys. (They’ve been around since 1981 but their use seems to have taken a huge uptick in recent years). Often the baby change is in the ladies - just a fold down table, which presents a whole other difficulty for men with children.

She won’t have “needed” to, but toddlers don’t limit their reach to what’s strictly needed. I absolutely hate grubby loos with my kids. 🤮

Which is why you wash their hands... it's not difficult.

And my point is yes, there's always a "good reason" that the person on the taking side thinks means their special case doesn't count.

And so he pops in, does his thing and hets on with his day. And has no motivation whatsoever to get anything done about the actual problem which is that male facilities are not suitable for childcare. And so nothing gets better and next time, oops, back into the ladies again.

So wash her hands?

Report the state of the men's toilet, use the disabled toilets if not busy. Carry child in gents toilet to avoid the floor, and we used to get held (in a sitting position) over the not very nice toilets, so we didn't have to sit on the seat.