"Man in ladies loo (with little daughter)" - and separately "Man in ladies loo (with wife with dementia)"

[ThisGreenMoose]

Hello. 1st time poster. Part of this thread has already been discussed in great detail two years ago (www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4935748-man-in-ladies-loo-with-little-daughter?reply=130518972), however the world has significantly changed in the past two years so I'm interested to see people's opinions now, plus further down I ask in relation to my mother with dementia.

I'm a man (early 40's), I have a 2 1/2 year old daughter, and I typically do all the shopping. I was in big Tesco's yesterday and unfortunately just before going to the checkout, my (recently potty trained) daughter told me she needed a wee. With a full trolley I knew I couldn't ask her to wait to check out and get home, so we trundled off to the toilets (leaving trolley with security).

The men's toilets were like ones at Glastonbury at the end of the weekend. My fellow man is (quite fairly) not generally known for being hygienic nor courteous to those using facilities after themselves, and whilst I can put up with it for myself when needed, now I had to get my daughter through there as cleanly as possible.

The floor was wet, bog roll everywhere, unflushed toilets, seats down with wee on them. My daughter was trying to touch anything she could, which made things somewhat difficult whilst carrying her (to keep her from getting wet feet) cleaning the seat, unpacking/unfolding the portable mini seat, getting her to do the business and cleanly out of there. Told my wife of the ordeal when home who just asked why I didn't use the women's toilets, and she said no woman would mind all things considered.

To be honest I wouldn't dare go in the women's toilets. I am well aware of the reputation of men generally, and I absolutely agree with women having a safe space. I'd hate for a woman or girl to feel uncomfortable or threatened by my presence. I'm a bit of a closet feminist.

However, with my wife's opinion shared, and had the men's been worse or engaged, would you say it would be fair or right for me to go in the women's toilets? Or can you suggest anything I could do differently?

Separately, but on partly the same topic, my mother has dementia (FTD) and is currently capable of using the toilet herself, but my family know she is not far off progressing to the point where she will need care. Our father / her husband is caring for her at the moment.

I'm sure there will be a time soon when she is caught short whilst out and about, and my father will need to help her (or myself if I'm looking after her). Should he/I be going into the women's toilet with her, or take her into the men's? I suppose as she has a hidden disability she could genuinely use the disabled toilet if there was one.

Interested to hear people's opinions. Thanks

You use the toilet appropriate to the parent/carer but in the elderly mothers case I would use disabled toilets

It’s not compulsory for us to agree.
As I have said previously, it’s not our first choice, however I will encourage what is in my child’s best interest and ensuring other users are not exposed to harm.

Seriously... if a grown man asks a 10yo child if he can do some is that child going say they are uncomfortable?

Do you want your daughter to have safe toilet access in the future or for her to be taught that mens needs come first?

maybe they were not disabled.

Other women's rights aren't yours to give away. It's really that simple.
The best interests of your child would be holding men responsible for male behavior. Not letting them and their poor behavior into our spaces.

Obviously your mother needs to use the disabled toilet. You take your young child (whether they are girl or boy) into the men’s toilet with you.

If this was a mum with a two year old boy urgently needing the toilet, I doubt she’d even question it - she wouldn’t go into the men’s, she’d take him into the women’s toilet. Absolutely standard procedure with very little children until they’re an age when they go in alone.

I think you’ve slipped up with this goady post as the solutions are so damn obvious. Try a bit harder next time to think up better scenarios.

I would be frozen to the spot. I’m autistic, I’m not able to respond to a man doing this. How dare he? I honestly am speechless at you for trying to suggest this is an acceptable way for a grown man to behave.

A man has no business in a ladies toilet. None.

Wow. "If I can't use the women's toilets my daughter will just have to piss in a pot in the car park."

Did you mean to be so manipulative? You really aren't doing a great job of convincing me you aren't a goady poster.

The reason women's toilets aren't as rank as men's is that we clean up after ourselves. If I accidentally drip on the seat, I clean it. If I want to sit down and the seat is wet, I wipe it first. (In fact ne of the reasons mixed sex toilets - yes including the ones in coffee shops and service stations - piss me off is that I always have to wipe.)

So be the change you want to see in the world, and get wiping!

FGS are people really so delicate they feel “goaded” by this thread. How do you get by in life?

It’s a poor attempt isnt it?!

They were not disabled, as far as I could see. But also, he wasn’t a woman.

Disabled toilet in both situations. If anyone challenges (unlikely) then explain the situation. Some disabled toilets require a RADAR key which can be bought.

It is not ideal, but using a filthy mens toilet with a toddler is not acceptable.

This ^

In a small confined space with no one else around it would be unusual for a woman to say no to this, even if she felt uncomfortable with it, because you wouldn’t know how the male was going to react.

Such toilets are "accessible", not exclusively for the use of those with disabilities. The law instigated their provision, but they actually cover many scenarios, including this one. People's opinions on that do not detract from that fact. I give no opinion of my own on it.

This man does not think it's appropriate to take his daughter into the men's loos. In this situation it's for hygiene reasons. In other situations it's because a father doesn't want to take his little girl into the men's because... well, men. She isn't one, and he doesn't want her in there. That's fine. But he can't be in the women's loos, so.

When a relative/friend of yours aged 8, 9, 10, 15, 19, 35, or whatever age, is in the women's toilet alone, and a man wants to bring his little girl in, I think you'd prefer he used the multipurpose accessible toilet, no?

No, you were right. Your wife doesn't have the right to make the decision for other women whether they mind a man in the ladies.

A small child goes in whatever toilet is appropriate for the parent they are with. If they're disgusting then either use the disabled or do a quick clean up job with loo roll or baby wipes and then complain to staff.

In the mother with dementia example, you would need to find a disabled toilet.

You know there's a difference between "feeling goaded" and recognising someone is being goady, right?

In fact, you could say they are mutually exclusive.

Once you see someone is goading deliberately, you aren't going to get goaded because you see through it.

One might still engage of course, but at the point one is really talking to the room rather than the poster, just using the goady posts as convenient springboard to make the points one wants to make.

This is why I love goady posters 😍

Exactly what I was coming on to say

I had a portable potty, baby wipes, spare pants and a pair of old leggings in my car at all times until my kids were much older than the toddler years. Always. Highly recommend you organise yourself this safety net, OP.

https://www.argos.co.uk/product/7410693?istCompanyId=a74d8886-5df9-4baa-b776-166b3bf9111c&istFeedId=30f62ea9-9626-4cac-97c8-9ff3921f8558&istItemId=mmlmrptip&istBid=t&utm_custom6=LIA&utm_source=google&utm_medium=free_listing&utm_campaign=merchant_center&deeplink=true

I agree with the practical advise, and in fact do it myself: adapt your activities to your children's need if she has to acompany you.
I also agree about your father using the disabled toilet: that is precisely what they are for.

I'm on the fence about categorically denying a man with a little girl access to the ladies loo. I feel bad for the girl and yes, it would be uncomfortable, but a million times more preferable than a bloke on high heels and a dress.
Ultimately I believe there should be family loos accessible for these cases.

ETA: I used to carry a portable potty and it saved us so many times! Highly recommend!

Well yes. But to be goaded or view something as goading you have to first view the OP as contentious enough to provoke that response, which is a stretch.

I don't think it's a stretch. The erosion of women's rights should evoke a response.

What about the young girl and her rights to hygiene and a safe environment to toilet in? Ultimately this is a father trying to best protect his child. I find it strange that people think that’s at odds with feminist principles.

I’m a woman and it wouldn’t bother me in the slightest if it was a dad with a daughter in the ladies toilets. Majority of Mumsnetters will berate you though.

But he isn't protecting his child in the long run. He's eliminating a womans only space that she will need for the rest of her life. He's taking away rights from all the other girls that ate trying to use the facility.

He’s really not. It is not that deep.