"Man in ladies loo (with little daughter)" - and separately "Man in ladies loo (with wife with dementia)"

[ThisGreenMoose]

Hello. 1st time poster. Part of this thread has already been discussed in great detail two years ago (www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4935748-man-in-ladies-loo-with-little-daughter?reply=130518972), however the world has significantly changed in the past two years so I'm interested to see people's opinions now, plus further down I ask in relation to my mother with dementia.

I'm a man (early 40's), I have a 2 1/2 year old daughter, and I typically do all the shopping. I was in big Tesco's yesterday and unfortunately just before going to the checkout, my (recently potty trained) daughter told me she needed a wee. With a full trolley I knew I couldn't ask her to wait to check out and get home, so we trundled off to the toilets (leaving trolley with security).

The men's toilets were like ones at Glastonbury at the end of the weekend. My fellow man is (quite fairly) not generally known for being hygienic nor courteous to those using facilities after themselves, and whilst I can put up with it for myself when needed, now I had to get my daughter through there as cleanly as possible.

The floor was wet, bog roll everywhere, unflushed toilets, seats down with wee on them. My daughter was trying to touch anything she could, which made things somewhat difficult whilst carrying her (to keep her from getting wet feet) cleaning the seat, unpacking/unfolding the portable mini seat, getting her to do the business and cleanly out of there. Told my wife of the ordeal when home who just asked why I didn't use the women's toilets, and she said no woman would mind all things considered.

To be honest I wouldn't dare go in the women's toilets. I am well aware of the reputation of men generally, and I absolutely agree with women having a safe space. I'd hate for a woman or girl to feel uncomfortable or threatened by my presence. I'm a bit of a closet feminist.

However, with my wife's opinion shared, and had the men's been worse or engaged, would you say it would be fair or right for me to go in the women's toilets? Or can you suggest anything I could do differently?

Separately, but on partly the same topic, my mother has dementia (FTD) and is currently capable of using the toilet herself, but my family know she is not far off progressing to the point where she will need care. Our father / her husband is caring for her at the moment.

I'm sure there will be a time soon when she is caught short whilst out and about, and my father will need to help her (or myself if I'm looking after her). Should he/I be going into the women's toilet with her, or take her into the men's? I suppose as she has a hidden disability she could genuinely use the disabled toilet if there was one.

Interested to hear people's opinions. Thanks

Is this for real? Are you really asking which toilet to use with your disabled mother?! 🙄
As for when out with your daughter - baby changing rooms usually have toilets. If not, and the men's was too filthy, then the I'd use the disabled too.

I agree with PP - did you say anything about the state of the men's toilet?

If your daughter was a boy, would that change whether you felt the women's was an option?

Because the cleanliness issues arise because she's a toddler, not because she's a girl, so you would have been in exactly the same position really.

Here’s another point to consider. What if the accessible toilet is within the main female toilet area or the main male toilet area rather than a completely separate area?

I’ve encountered this situation many times as a female out and about with a male adult relative who requires full assistance in the toilet due to his severe learning disabilities. I’ve come across it in airports, zoos etc

My choice is then to either take him into the accessible cubicle in the female toilet block or into the accessible cubicle in the male toilet block 🤷‍♀️

Dude, there is no excuse for you to go into the ladies’ room. None at all.

Baby change facilities for your daughter.

If your mother needs assistance then she needs to go in the disabled loo with her carer to help. Not sure why that’s even a question.

Yes! Nail on the head.

Jeezo. FFS men, can’t you pee and poop with some level of humanity? Do you have to behave like fucking animals? Actually, scratch that animals are quite picky about their habits in this regard. So men, how does it feel to be less than animal?

OP you absolutely cannot and should not use the ladies loo. FFS can’t believe you or your wife would even consider it.

Options:
Use the accessible toilet (and incidentally that’s the toilet your “with dementia” example should use too)

Complain about the state of the men’s toilets to the shop

Campaign for father-friendly parenting suites for future use

Set up an etiquette and toilet behaviour advertising campaign so that your fellow man can be dragged into better hygiene and toilet behaviour.

I'd use the disabled loo for both of it was me.

Personally, I wouldn't mind a man using the female toilet with their child or mother who had dementia. I don't think a man caring for his female relative is a threat to women.

I can't tell whether OP is a complete wet wipe of a man (& that extends to his wife) or a really goady poster.

I have two disabled children- why should they not have access because lots of parents are using them with their children?

Clearly fine for your mum to use the disabled toilets. I don’t think it’s acceptable with a child unless baby change is in there and it is a nappy wearing child.

My vote goes on goady. We are getting no end of them these days - "oh but what about this incredibly contrived and rare scenrio I just thought up? If you think it's unreasonable to say no then, you do not deserve to be allowed to say no ever".

Those posters have the same energy as when young men tried to persuade me to sleep with them by trying to demonstrate to me that my boundaries were logically inconsistent in the belief that I would then be obliged to say yes.

But what is pissing me off about this thread is the unspoken assumption that if men's provisions aren't suitable for some men the obvious solution is to use women's spaces.

No, if men's provisions aren't suitable because of the behaviour of men that is not a fact of life like gravity (or indeed our sex) that we just have to live with, it's perfectly solveable by men demanding better of each other instead of running away to bully women as the easier target.

agree with the first comments
your wife doesn't get to speak on behalf of all women and say they wouldn't mind 'all things considered' or not

Firstly, what are the 'all things considered?' A dirty loo? it's hardly life or death.

You're only considering using the ladies because you have a little girl, but why should a 2 year old boy have to put up with it? Your fellow men made it that grim, take it up with them if they're so gross they make their own facilities unusable, don't muscle into ours.

And your wife can't say 'all things considered' because she doesn't have a clue (and apparently hasn't bothered to consider) what everyone else's 'all things' are - if they are SA victims or belong to a religion where women are not supposed to share facilities with men, who have bled through their clothes and are trying to wash them out without a strange man seeing them, if they are a young girl only slightly older than yours, out with just their father themselves, whose father has done the right thing and NOT come into the women's loos, assuming their daughter will be okay there AMONG WOMEN, only to see a random bloke go in after her...

She sounds arrogant and unpleasant, prioritising her little princess who is too young to really know or care who else is around her over other women who are old enough to conceptualise being afraid and uncomfortable and who, unlike your daughter don't have their dad with them to protect them.

This 100%

why are women asked to solve this (fabricated) problem?

In 5 or 10 years time, would you want unknown men following your unaccompained daughter into the female toilets.

If the answer is no, don't go in there with your toddler as that is what you are potentially doing. Being a father doesn't make you statistically less risky.

If the answer is yes, you wouldn't mind... really? You are happy for your daughter to be followed?

You use the appropriate facilities and you use them respectfully.

Men go in the men’s toilets and when in charge of children they go in the men’s toilets too. What do you think would have been magically easier about taking a two year old to the toilet you describe if they were a boy? My daughters accompany my partner to the men’s until it is appropriate for them to use the ladies alone - exact age for this varies by location but it is never appropriate for him to use the women’s toilets and he has never considered doing so.

Women go in the women’s toilets and when in charge of children they go in the women’s toilets too. My son goes into the women’s toilets with me until it is appropriate for him to go on his own into the men’s - venue specific on age. Some places as young as 4, some as old as 8. There is nothing magical about a women’s loo which makes it clean, please believe me. There is nothing glamorous about trying to prevent toddlers of either sex fiddling with sanitary bins whilst you have your pants around your ankles. Nor answering questions about rape and sexual assault from newly reading six year olds whilst in the women’s toilets.Having never been in the men’s I’m not sure if there are targeted ads in there about asking Angela, rape and sexual assault helplines, domestic abuse, period poverty and coercive control. Maybe there are. Or maybe that’s what men do to women in such a large majority that little girls think about it every time they go to the toilet in many venues.

People with disabilities use the disabled toilets. Which would be appropriately sized for two people to facilitate help with using the facilities and all for carers to use them too without leaving a vulnerable person unattended.

Great, all done.

buy yourself a radar key so you can use the disabled / baby change ones. I’m sorry your toilets are so disgusting I hope you complained to Tesco they are obviously never cleaned 🤮

The men's loos would have been equally unpleasant if your child was a boy. Report the condition to staff. If, when your DD is older, you feel uncomfortable taking her past urinals, then use a disabled toilet. Similarly your mum, there simp,y isn't space to assist another adult in most ordinary toilets.

Like your wife, I wouldn't care if you took your DD into a Ladies Toilet, but some women would.

No men shouldn’t be in female toilets. You need to use the men’s, disabled or baby changing at a pinch. Report to staff if men’s toilets are disgusting.

Disingenuous post.

Maybe use the disabled loo? Offers privacy for everyone that way. That’s what my husband did when my daughter was younger. Now she’s 8 she goes into the ladies alone and he waits by the door for her if I’m not there.

Use the disabled toilets for both scenarios, as disabled toilets are unisex. I would think that no disabled person in view of your situation with your dd would object to you using them for a couple of minutes. Or even baby changing rooms, which some places have.

I would use the disabled toilet in both circumstances here. Since they are usually both unisex, and individual cubicles, I think it’s the best place to take your daughter. While she may not have a disability, if she’s not old enough to toilet on her own, then I think it’s appropriate to use the disabled loo.

I have this dilemma with sending my nine year old into the mens toilet when we’re out and about. I REALLY hate doing it, particularly if we are somewhere with high footfall but I feel guilty if I take him into the women’s. I really see this as a damned if you do/damned if you don’t problem and it was the only reason I liked unisex toilets when they came in.

I hate when men do this.

The men's toilets are not good enough for your daughter but other women and female children have to tolerate you in their bathroom.

I don't need to read any of that post, its very very simple
Men can't go in the ladies loos, end of