"Man in ladies loo (with little daughter)" - and separately "Man in ladies loo (with wife with dementia)"

[ThisGreenMoose]

Hello. 1st time poster. Part of this thread has already been discussed in great detail two years ago (www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4935748-man-in-ladies-loo-with-little-daughter?reply=130518972), however the world has significantly changed in the past two years so I'm interested to see people's opinions now, plus further down I ask in relation to my mother with dementia.

I'm a man (early 40's), I have a 2 1/2 year old daughter, and I typically do all the shopping. I was in big Tesco's yesterday and unfortunately just before going to the checkout, my (recently potty trained) daughter told me she needed a wee. With a full trolley I knew I couldn't ask her to wait to check out and get home, so we trundled off to the toilets (leaving trolley with security).

The men's toilets were like ones at Glastonbury at the end of the weekend. My fellow man is (quite fairly) not generally known for being hygienic nor courteous to those using facilities after themselves, and whilst I can put up with it for myself when needed, now I had to get my daughter through there as cleanly as possible.

The floor was wet, bog roll everywhere, unflushed toilets, seats down with wee on them. My daughter was trying to touch anything she could, which made things somewhat difficult whilst carrying her (to keep her from getting wet feet) cleaning the seat, unpacking/unfolding the portable mini seat, getting her to do the business and cleanly out of there. Told my wife of the ordeal when home who just asked why I didn't use the women's toilets, and she said no woman would mind all things considered.

To be honest I wouldn't dare go in the women's toilets. I am well aware of the reputation of men generally, and I absolutely agree with women having a safe space. I'd hate for a woman or girl to feel uncomfortable or threatened by my presence. I'm a bit of a closet feminist.

However, with my wife's opinion shared, and had the men's been worse or engaged, would you say it would be fair or right for me to go in the women's toilets? Or can you suggest anything I could do differently?

Separately, but on partly the same topic, my mother has dementia (FTD) and is currently capable of using the toilet herself, but my family know she is not far off progressing to the point where she will need care. Our father / her husband is caring for her at the moment.

I'm sure there will be a time soon when she is caught short whilst out and about, and my father will need to help her (or myself if I'm looking after her). Should he/I be going into the women's toilet with her, or take her into the men's? I suppose as she has a hidden disability she could genuinely use the disabled toilet if there was one.

Interested to hear people's opinions. Thanks

But what exactly would he have done if someone had said no?
And what about the women who weren't there when he asked? They didn't get a chance to object. How many women might have had to hold it, or leave, or use the toilet in discomfort because he was already there?

It could be interpreted that I was speaking for other women when I said that I would use an alternative toilet if I was a man in his position.

I wouldn't mind giving away a single sex space in these circumstances because I personally don't feel threatened by a man in these circumstances using a female toilet, but I don't live on this planet alone, and I am aware that other people might not like it, which is why I said I suggested using another toilet.

I have mentioned this upthread, but here we go again. I wouldn’t be able to reply to him asking as I am autistic. I would be frozen with fear and deeply uncomfortable. How dare he. There is an alternative available, it’s the men’s. If he isn’t happy with the set up then he needs to find a solution that does not involve using the women’s toilets. They are for women. Not men. It’s so simple.

No. It’s is not for women and girls to have to decide in the immediate moment to give away not just their space but that of other women and girls including those not in the room at the time. Imagine being a teenage girl in there, the women breezily say, of course you can come in and in waltzes an adult man where a teen girl is getting changed.

I can’t believe either of you ever thought that was fine for him to do.

Exactly. Men need to do the work to create solutions. But they don’t because it’s much easier to just expect women to shit up and shove over, or do the work for them.

And women condone this all the time.

Men can't understand why it's completely inappropriate being in a women's toilet ( or asking if they can). It's not their fault. They haven't grown up as a woman. They don't know what it's like to be scared of men, to constantly need to be vigilant, to feel that awkwardness and that fear when there's just you and a strange man in a small space. Even if that man has done nothing. Men are bigger, stronger and could hurt you if they wanted to. It's basic biology. Maybe things have got better but of my peers I don't know one who hasn't been sexually assaulted to some degree and definitely not one who has never felt scared walking home alone. You are there to protect your daughter in the mens but as soon as she's big enough she can go to the women's on her own.

This.

I would be afraid to say no. I struggle to say no to men in real life. It’s taken my current partner a long time to get me to the point where I feel comfortable enough with him to say no when he asks for something. ( I struggle Due to previous abuse before someone jumps in)

The answer is never for a man to be in the ladies. He needs to find an alternative.

The issue is that men are a threat to women and no amount of legislating can change that.

If you know men are a threat to women, why would you invite them into our spaces?

I wouldn’t invite them, I’ve not said I would.

For your DM, get a disabled toilet access key as well for the future as that will help.

for you DD, I might have stuck my head into the ladies loo and shouted if anyone was in there and explained you have your daughter there. I know everyone is different, but I wouldn’t care if you came in whilst I was in there, especially if I could see you had a young child needing the loo.

I have experienced horrific male violence.

It is my experience of male violence, and the fact that DD is female, that influenced my DH’s thinking. DH believed that by seeking explicit consent from women he was being sensitive to being in their space. He also said women were understanding of why he did it. To this day he is enraged by the fact that men sometimes have to change their daughters’ nappies next to men looking at their child’s nakedness while holding their penises.

Having said that - this was about fifteen years ago, before TWAW.

I would never support him doing this NOW but at the time I did think consent was key. At the time I also didn’t have thoughts about TW using female toilets. in. I do now.

I doubt very much DH would do this now because of what has happened in the intervening time and he is very GC - again, because of what happened to me. I also don’t think he did it that often because there usually is an alternative.

But I do understand why he did it: for DD, not himself.

Never had a problem that you know of. The women and girls who're intimidated by him invading their single sex space are very unlikely to challenge him. Entitled, selfish men like your husband bank on women being too scared to object.

I’m glad that neither of you would condone this now but it’s still worrying that he didn’t understand the power differential in his seeking of “consent” for a man to invade a female-only space. The rise of TWAW is really neither here nor there.

It’s got bugger all to do with TWAW.

Wouldn’t you have worried about men looking at your boy child’s nakedness? Don’t you ever worry about all the mum’s taking boys into the ladies where ladies are looking at their nakedness?

Your husband encroached into a space where he had no right to be.

Very many women, myself included, wouldn’t be able to say no to a man in that situation.

He should have gone elsewhere. Or, you know, campaigned for unisex baby changing facilities. Not invaded the women’s space where he legally wasn’t entitled to be.

Even if he sought “explicit consent”.

And as for being “sensitive” to being in their space?

so he would’ve gone in anyway. He just wanted the fig leaf of well I asked.

Some feminist he is. And if you knew he was doing it, what did you say about it?

@Morphinesucks

Seriously…? Are you drunk?

Fifteen years ago not many people gave a thought to TWAW, so no, the issue of males encroaching on female spaces didn’t resonate the way it does now and my DH wasn’t even thinking about that.

My DH took our girl into female spaces after ASKING the women in there if they minded. He would NEVER have gone in there if anyone had said no.

Do you want to know why I know for an absolute fact he would NEVER do that? Please read slowly and carefully …

Because I suffered sexual abuse through all my teens. This culminated in a physical attack in my twenties which nearly destroyed me and required five people to intervene to save my life from a deranged monster. My husband knows about male violence because he lives with the impacts of it through ME.

This might be complicated for you to understand, but … knowing what I experienced, he did not want his little girl looked at by males when she has her pants down. He didn’t want her seeing a strangers male genitalia.

If you are incapable of understanding that instinct, and incapable of contextualising his approach in a different era where most women probably didn’t mind a tiny number of transwomen (men!!!) in their spaces … then I have nothing to say to you.

And you know nothing about what we do and do not campaign for.

I’m done.

I also have no problem with a dad taking his young daughter into the ladies loo.

a) what if someone was too surprised or scared to say no, or didn't hear him? b)Surely he'd have to be pretty much in the toilets already to be in a position to ask permission and be heard, at which point he might have already discomfited someone who wasn't expecting him there.
c) what if someone who didn't want him in there came in while he was in the cubicle with dd? Too late to ask them then!
d) it still puts the onus on women to say no, be 'awkward' and 'mean' to a little girl, even feel like they have to justify themselves - they should never have to be put in that position, because your DH is not a man, and your dd isn't a passport to FEMALE ONLY spaces

It was inappropriate of your dh to do that, as it would be inappropriate for any man, ever to use women's toilets or changing spaces regardless of who is was with, when there was a male alternative available

@suitcasesarepacked

like you I have been a victim of CSA and rape and that’s exactly why I’m comfortable with a child, escorted by an adult male, entering a female space. Because I believe it’s better for the child than the alternative and can put my own feelings aside in favour of the best interests of that child.

Posters have asked how exactly is a child “vulnerable” in the men’s but I think the reverse is true of a man, escorting a child in the ladies. I would never be a barrier to a father taking steps to act in the best interests of their child.

Because of my experience me and my DH are very cautious re sleepovers and our children in public spaces and I’m aware I’m probably hyper vigilant in this respect.

But not everyone has to agree. I respect the opinions of others even if they don’t resonate with me.

Thank goodness for unisex and disabled toilets.
Both situations would suit them.
The extra space allows two people to comfortably be in the room together.
Always report an untidy toilet, low loo roll etc.

That’s the thing though, people on the the thread arguing disabled toilets are the solution are doing so at the expense of the disabled - who don’t agree. [See linked thread].

ive not seen unisex toilets but would be ideal if they were common place, unfortunately needing several toilets for every scenario is quite demanding on many businesses - although admittedly not big Tesco I wouldn’t have thought.

The logic is just so ridiculous though. Men don't feel comfortable taking female children into the men's toilets, so the solution is to force their presence upon different female children? It just doesn't even make sense.
It's just another example of men putting their own comfort first and taking the easy route no matter the consequences for anyone else.

@Digdongdoo it’s ridiculous because you don’t agree. In my view you’re forcing a girl into a male only space. The layout of a woman’s toilet is different (cubicles) so the part where the male is in the females space is different. I think your reasoning is ridiculous- my view is you’d rather force a small girl into a male only space for the sake of your own perceived discomfort. You’re around men ALL the time. If they were sharing a cubicle, fine, they’re not.

Also nowhere have I said it’s the solution, I’ve said up thread accessible toilets would be my preference, but that upsets another group, unisex or changing facilities ideal. But again. Not everywhere has them. I haven’t mentioned an ultimate solution, just the best available one at the time. Which won’t always be the same because there’s variables.

In our country there is usually one sign that is inclusive of Disabled, Unisex and Family/Baby Changing. It is usually vacant - so no other person is usually waiting outside the door. It is a large room with change table, basin, toilet, hand rails and sometimes shower. All public buildings and shops have to have Male, Female and the inclusive Disabled/Family loo options.
Is the UK not the same?