"Man in ladies loo (with little daughter)" - and separately "Man in ladies loo (with wife with dementia)"

[ThisGreenMoose]

Hello. 1st time poster. Part of this thread has already been discussed in great detail two years ago (www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4935748-man-in-ladies-loo-with-little-daughter?reply=130518972), however the world has significantly changed in the past two years so I'm interested to see people's opinions now, plus further down I ask in relation to my mother with dementia.

I'm a man (early 40's), I have a 2 1/2 year old daughter, and I typically do all the shopping. I was in big Tesco's yesterday and unfortunately just before going to the checkout, my (recently potty trained) daughter told me she needed a wee. With a full trolley I knew I couldn't ask her to wait to check out and get home, so we trundled off to the toilets (leaving trolley with security).

The men's toilets were like ones at Glastonbury at the end of the weekend. My fellow man is (quite fairly) not generally known for being hygienic nor courteous to those using facilities after themselves, and whilst I can put up with it for myself when needed, now I had to get my daughter through there as cleanly as possible.

The floor was wet, bog roll everywhere, unflushed toilets, seats down with wee on them. My daughter was trying to touch anything she could, which made things somewhat difficult whilst carrying her (to keep her from getting wet feet) cleaning the seat, unpacking/unfolding the portable mini seat, getting her to do the business and cleanly out of there. Told my wife of the ordeal when home who just asked why I didn't use the women's toilets, and she said no woman would mind all things considered.

To be honest I wouldn't dare go in the women's toilets. I am well aware of the reputation of men generally, and I absolutely agree with women having a safe space. I'd hate for a woman or girl to feel uncomfortable or threatened by my presence. I'm a bit of a closet feminist.

However, with my wife's opinion shared, and had the men's been worse or engaged, would you say it would be fair or right for me to go in the women's toilets? Or can you suggest anything I could do differently?

Separately, but on partly the same topic, my mother has dementia (FTD) and is currently capable of using the toilet herself, but my family know she is not far off progressing to the point where she will need care. Our father / her husband is caring for her at the moment.

I'm sure there will be a time soon when she is caught short whilst out and about, and my father will need to help her (or myself if I'm looking after her). Should he/I be going into the women's toilet with her, or take her into the men's? I suppose as she has a hidden disability she could genuinely use the disabled toilet if there was one.

Interested to hear people's opinions. Thanks

I think taking in hyperbole, using emotive language like “invading” is totally irrational. Being so rigid in your principles that you can’t adapt in any context is so unrealistic. The reality is Big Tescos loos likely have little demand and sit vacant most of the time. Many toilets have male toilet attendants, I encountered upon one at a county park last week, I was briefly taken aback but my bladder nonetheless emptied. You all sound neurotic.

If men aren't comfortable taking their girls unto the men's toilets, they need to find another solution. Forcing themselves onto other females isn't an option.
They should put the work into challenging each other and making systemic changes so the world in general is a safer place for their daughters. Forcing themselves into female spaces is the opposite. It's so lazy and shortsighted.
Men and women like you need to think about the consequences of normalizing this behavior.

See the thread - I agree but many don’t. Apparently even if you use a vacant toilet that’s unacceptable.

FFS I’m not “normalising” anything. Again total hyperbole. I’m merely saying that in limited exceptional circumstances I wouldn’t object. You’re taking everything to the extreme and extrapolating at every opportunity to fit your own narrative.

‘The disabled’ are not all the same person.

Im disabled and I couldn’t give a fuck if someone chooses to toilet their young child in the accessible toilet.

I don’t think a man should just assume he
can take his daughter into the ladies. What I would accept as a compromise is him standing at the door and asking/announcing can he bring his daughter in. I do think most women would be ok with this? Otherwise continue to carry wipes etc, as you did when children were babies, and clean up in the men’s.

As regards the mother with dementia then disabled toilet. I would say having dementia is a disability. If a midly autistic person is disabled, and they are according to the benefits system, then someone with dementia certainly is.

Sorry I didn’t mean to offend - I was just making the point that a solution for one group causes a perceived issue to another.

You realise that you are expecting everyone other than the source of the problem (men) to solve the problem?

For me, personally, I would be happy for any man with a tiny girl to call out and announce that his daughter needed to use the loo and could they proceed into the female loos to use a cubicle? I would answer YES, after making sure other women agreed; and I would offer to stand at the door to alert any women who were entering the female toilets - just so that they were not shocked. That would be quite fine, in circumstances where there were only Male or Female toilet options at a shopping centre.
The female loos have private cubicles.

I would not be comfortable if the girl needed the loo at a swimming pool where there would be women undressed.

You don’t get to say yes for me.

If you were also there with me, your one NO would over rule, obviously.

I don't care about blokes in ladies' loos AND I also feel strongly that disabled access loos are ACCESSIBLE not reserved. So fine to use the disabled loo to manage a child's toileting.

ACCESSIBLE not RESERVED.

I’ve already explained that it’s taken years of therapy for me to be able to say no.

I would have been mute, distressed and would have had to leave and immediately go Home. I’d have had a panic attack. Self harmed. In ways I don’t want to describe.

but that’s ok coz you think it’s fine.

no. It isn’t.

I would use the baby change /disabled loo first.
if not a loo there, then I would knock on the door of the ladies and ask ‘is anyone there, is it ok for me to take my little girl in here?’ If empty she uses it, if full and no answer try to wait until those ladies leave and then go in with your daughter

Ps I always use accessible toilet when with my toddler and my buggy

That’s the thing - you see my view as affording some sort of privileged reserved for women to men, whereas I see a little girl who desperately needs a wee and the best of a bad option in the circumstances in this particular instance and view YOU and other women as adults who should be capable of applying rationale and emotionally regulating themselves enough for a few minutes to cope with whatever perceived slight they feel they have suffered.

Whilst that’s obviously extremely distressing I presume it’s not only toilets that invoke that response and more likely day to day life.

You realise it isn't only full grown emotionally stable adult women who use female toilets right? I might well be capable of managing my feelings about a man being there, another woman or girl may not.

Some people take that view, but it's a bit extreme don't you think? An accessible toilet is not the same as a parking space.

And it is common here (in the UK) for the baby changing table to be in the disabled loo.

I can’t avoid going out all the time. But. I do. Mostly.

why is the answer not to expect men to obey the law?

Yes I think it’s extreme and when I’ve been out with two children, one in a pushchair I’ve always used the accessible loo.

Erm ... Which law is that?

The law as recently clarified by the Supreme Court.

I can reasonably be expected to object to a man in the single sex provision - the toilets are sex segregated.

But even the law has exceptions in its application - like male toilet attendants. I admit I’ve not read the legislation, but like I said upthread, this is not going to be an offence which is prosecuted.

Ahh so the two year old should be expected to be more adult than the actual adults.