"Man in ladies loo (with little daughter)" - and separately "Man in ladies loo (with wife with dementia)"

[ThisGreenMoose]

Hello. 1st time poster. Part of this thread has already been discussed in great detail two years ago (www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4935748-man-in-ladies-loo-with-little-daughter?reply=130518972), however the world has significantly changed in the past two years so I'm interested to see people's opinions now, plus further down I ask in relation to my mother with dementia.

I'm a man (early 40's), I have a 2 1/2 year old daughter, and I typically do all the shopping. I was in big Tesco's yesterday and unfortunately just before going to the checkout, my (recently potty trained) daughter told me she needed a wee. With a full trolley I knew I couldn't ask her to wait to check out and get home, so we trundled off to the toilets (leaving trolley with security).

The men's toilets were like ones at Glastonbury at the end of the weekend. My fellow man is (quite fairly) not generally known for being hygienic nor courteous to those using facilities after themselves, and whilst I can put up with it for myself when needed, now I had to get my daughter through there as cleanly as possible.

The floor was wet, bog roll everywhere, unflushed toilets, seats down with wee on them. My daughter was trying to touch anything she could, which made things somewhat difficult whilst carrying her (to keep her from getting wet feet) cleaning the seat, unpacking/unfolding the portable mini seat, getting her to do the business and cleanly out of there. Told my wife of the ordeal when home who just asked why I didn't use the women's toilets, and she said no woman would mind all things considered.

To be honest I wouldn't dare go in the women's toilets. I am well aware of the reputation of men generally, and I absolutely agree with women having a safe space. I'd hate for a woman or girl to feel uncomfortable or threatened by my presence. I'm a bit of a closet feminist.

However, with my wife's opinion shared, and had the men's been worse or engaged, would you say it would be fair or right for me to go in the women's toilets? Or can you suggest anything I could do differently?

Separately, but on partly the same topic, my mother has dementia (FTD) and is currently capable of using the toilet herself, but my family know she is not far off progressing to the point where she will need care. Our father / her husband is caring for her at the moment.

I'm sure there will be a time soon when she is caught short whilst out and about, and my father will need to help her (or myself if I'm looking after her). Should he/I be going into the women's toilet with her, or take her into the men's? I suppose as she has a hidden disability she could genuinely use the disabled toilet if there was one.

Interested to hear people's opinions. Thanks

So no other 2 year olds ever go into the ladies do they? Mums never take their toddlers to change and toilet? That spot is reserved for men who don't like the men's? Seriously, where is the logic?

Where’s the logic in asking about Mums when the childs mother wasn’t present in the scenario subject to this discussion?

@MorphinesucksI want to apologise for the ferocity of my response last night. I was badly triggered and should have paused before replying.

I wasn’t ignoring you I didn’t want to respond because I was angry last night and that wouldn’t have been fair to you . I’m so sorry for what you went through

I was abused as a child not sexually but physically and sexually abused as an adult in a relationship and then sexually assaulted and raped - the individual burst through my door and strangled me and then raped me.

a lot of my trauma is around being in closed spaces with a door that someone can burst through from the outside. I rarely go out ( I work from home and do a lot of shopping online) but hearing a man outside of the door of the toilet I’m in would be so so difficult for me to cope with. I would be traumatised.

again, I am so sorry for what you went through.

This is the crux of it - and thank you @TheSummerof25for your measured comments.

A girl is also a female.

A child is more vulnerable than an adult to exploitation.

A child is powerless.

Sometimes that child is accompanied by her father, without her mother.

In a moment - where no alternatives exist - I would hope women can see that this is an exceptional situation and prioritise the protection of a female child. My DH’s experience was that this was the case.

I think arguing he should campaign for safe spaces instead of dealing with the issue immediately at hand - a female child in need - makes no sense.

I think arguing that a man who knocks on a door, seeks consent, respects that consent, etc. is ‘entitled’ and invading spaces is illogical and intentionally provocative.

I think implying he is insensitive to female trauma , when his actions are trauma informed and oriented towards protecting a female, is also skewed.

Having said all that … trans politics have had a massive impact. We don’t have a toddler now. DH and I are currently fighting for female only toilets at DD’s high school. And his (our) anger and drive in this case is still trauma informed and geared towards protecting her -as it was when she was a toddler.

Who is more vulnerable and powerless, a two year old in the company of a man or a 5 year old who is by themself?

Who is more vulnerable and powerless, a two year old in the company of a man or a 5 year old who is by themself?

Whats the rationale behind this question?

I don’t know what the rationale behind the question is either. But you can explain to a five year old that a toilet is occupied and they need to wait a bit. Their bladder control is better too.

A question for the posters who think it's okay for a man with daughter to use the female toilets as long as he asks politely and no woman objects.

If you were in that scenario where a women did object would you immediately tell the man no as a woman has objected or would you first ask the objecting women to reconsider and let him use the loo?

@spannasaurus your statement “a man with daughter to use the female toilets…” is misleading. OP was not proposing to use the toilets, the discussion is surrounding him escorting a female toddler to the extent necessary to facilitate her use of the toilet. If she were older she wouldn’t need escorting.

Also to add. In this scenario I expect the child would have weed themselves. Potty training toddlers have very limited bladder control. I would view it as a shame that the little girl weed herself whilst people discussed their options but aside from that what else is there to do?

Yes. Fathers need to campaign for more family loos in places where there are likely to be families (zoos, museums, shopping centres). Some have them already eg the Trafford centre iirc, it’s not a novel concept. Other places effectively do, multi use ‘accessible’ with the changing table are obviously intended for parents with small children as well as for disabled people.

I think it means that a 2 year old with her dad in a cubicle in the men’s is highly unlikely to be at any risk from anyone else using the facilities as their father would be constantly with them.

Whereas a 5 year old girl could be unaccompanied in the female toilets (if out shopping with her dad for example), and therefore could be deemed as more vulnerable to a dad in the female toilet with his toddler daughter, even if the dad wasn’t using the toilet himself, as he would still be in that confined space with potentially unaccompanied young girls or boys with their mums.

It seems a fairly new thing for men to even consider using the female facilities with children, I can’t remember ever coming across this in the past as I’m sure they used to take them into the disabled/parent and child or men’s. Well that’s what my DH did anyway….

i used to plan out where I shopped when my dc were young to consider different toilet scenarios and where would make life easier with buggy etc, and visited places like the Trafford centre with accessible facilities more often then.

Not misleading as he is making use of the toilets for his daughter but in case of confusion I will rephrase

A question for the posters who think it's okay for a man with daughter to enter the female toilets as long as he asks politely and no woman objects.

If you were in that scenario where a women did object would you immediately tell the man no as a woman has objected or would you first ask the objecting women to reconsider and let him enter the loo?

She wouldn't wet herself if he went straight to the men's loos

What else is there to do?

Simply go into the Men’s toilet.

Which is exactly what he did.

It’s not that simple when as the OP describes the mens loos are in a vile state suitable only for blokes standing up peeing. Obviously part of the longer term solution (in addition to pushing for family loos) is for them to complain and get the service providers to do a better job of cleaning them. Trying to make some of their fellow men behave in a civilized manner is probably impossible I fear.
Men absolutely shouldn’t be coming into the women’s loos for any reason (unless they’re cleaners or plumbers) but it’s not ‘simple’ and it benefits everyone for there to be appropriate facilities for parents with opposite sex kids.

It seems a fairly new thing for men to even consider using the female facilities with children…

I don’t think it is a thing, it’s not even really a thing here - it didn’t even happen. It’s entirely hypothetical. I have only encountered males in women’s toilets where they were cleaning.

It did happen to me a couple of weeks ago on holiday….no history of trauma/abuse (me), and I did feel pretty uncomfortable, but like I couldn’t really refuse as I would look mean. Pretty unnecessary as well as there were men’s toilets right next door, it was really quiet (no one else around- which made me feel weird) and his wife/partner was stood outside 🤷‍♀️

With his wife outside? Well obviously just for the kick of it isn't it?

Could he have been mistaken? In a new building in uni I inadvertently used the men’s toilets - I didn’t realise until I left and spotted the urinals. I just hadn’t looked properly. Nobody else was there or saw me as far as I’m aware (obviously I used a cubicle).

When I was a child, around 15 years old, I had a man kick the door of the cubicle I was in off its hinges. He was angry because I was ignoring him (I was frightened). No men in women's single sex spaces!

I wouldn’t have thought so, it was at a hotel/restaurant on the seafront. The toilets were marked male/female and you needed a code to enter, which you got given inside the bar.

Inside there were 2 toilet cubicles with flimsy doors, not hugely private, you could hear everything.

I was in there alone and the mum/female was banging on the door shouting can she come in she needs a wee (the child). I opened the outer door and said yes of course, and the male brought her inside. It was small and cramped and very weird.

We do have these loos. They started as a facility for disabled people and then someone had the bright idea to put a baby change in them as they are spacious I assume.
The problem with this is that now disabled people who need to catheterise or change a stoma bag are now queuing up behind parents taking their 4 kids for a wee.....whilst they poo/wee themselves in the line 🙄