"Man in ladies loo (with little daughter)" - and separately "Man in ladies loo (with wife with dementia)"

[ThisGreenMoose]

Hello. 1st time poster. Part of this thread has already been discussed in great detail two years ago (www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4935748-man-in-ladies-loo-with-little-daughter?reply=130518972), however the world has significantly changed in the past two years so I'm interested to see people's opinions now, plus further down I ask in relation to my mother with dementia.

I'm a man (early 40's), I have a 2 1/2 year old daughter, and I typically do all the shopping. I was in big Tesco's yesterday and unfortunately just before going to the checkout, my (recently potty trained) daughter told me she needed a wee. With a full trolley I knew I couldn't ask her to wait to check out and get home, so we trundled off to the toilets (leaving trolley with security).

The men's toilets were like ones at Glastonbury at the end of the weekend. My fellow man is (quite fairly) not generally known for being hygienic nor courteous to those using facilities after themselves, and whilst I can put up with it for myself when needed, now I had to get my daughter through there as cleanly as possible.

The floor was wet, bog roll everywhere, unflushed toilets, seats down with wee on them. My daughter was trying to touch anything she could, which made things somewhat difficult whilst carrying her (to keep her from getting wet feet) cleaning the seat, unpacking/unfolding the portable mini seat, getting her to do the business and cleanly out of there. Told my wife of the ordeal when home who just asked why I didn't use the women's toilets, and she said no woman would mind all things considered.

To be honest I wouldn't dare go in the women's toilets. I am well aware of the reputation of men generally, and I absolutely agree with women having a safe space. I'd hate for a woman or girl to feel uncomfortable or threatened by my presence. I'm a bit of a closet feminist.

However, with my wife's opinion shared, and had the men's been worse or engaged, would you say it would be fair or right for me to go in the women's toilets? Or can you suggest anything I could do differently?

Separately, but on partly the same topic, my mother has dementia (FTD) and is currently capable of using the toilet herself, but my family know she is not far off progressing to the point where she will need care. Our father / her husband is caring for her at the moment.

I'm sure there will be a time soon when she is caught short whilst out and about, and my father will need to help her (or myself if I'm looking after her). Should he/I be going into the women's toilet with her, or take her into the men's? I suppose as she has a hidden disability she could genuinely use the disabled toilet if there was one.

Interested to hear people's opinions. Thanks

You don't need to say it again, but what you've said doesn't really answer my question. If you would never do it, what is the dilemma? Drop the condescension please.

I have read your post and the whole thread. If you would never dare go into the ladies, why are you posting this thread at all? It's not an ethical dilemma. And why are you only thankful for 'constructive' posts - presumably posts that don't challenge you. If this was a genuine ethical dilemma and you genuinely cared what women thought, you would be thankful that women were telling you honestly what they think and feel about your suggestion to bring your daughter into the ladies. But you aren't thankful and don't want to hear how women really feel about it, you only want to hear helpful advice for yourself. It's all about you really isn't it.

I think OP posted on a discussion board looking for exactly that, a discussion; are the posters who think that’s surprising new around here?

Nope; it was in regards to my wife's opinion and whether mine was correct. I wouldn't dare (and still wouldn't dare) go into a women's toilet as stated above.

I thought ethical dilemmas would be appropriate. Apparently not?

Use the Accessible Toilet in both cases.

I said "There's been a lot of constructive comments, negative and positive". Negative surely means those that do challenge me?

Which topic should this question have gone under? I thought ethical dilemmas would be the right one?

I’m not sure why you wouldn’t speak to customer services after your DD had been to the loo, @ThisGreenMoose?

In terms of discussion, you’re not responding to people so a dialogue can’t start.

Nope. A dilemma is where you have to make a choice between two situations. And yes you can discuss that. But he’s made it clear he’d never go into a women’s toilet. So there’s no dilemma. That’s what I was getting at.

Why are you being so combative and splitting hairs?

Because I still had to finish shopping, then queue with full trolley at one of the (only) two trolley checkouts (each had queue of other shoppers which took 20 mins to get through), and I was conscious that my daughter was being very well behaved and I didn't want to cross the line into boredom / tiredness. An extra wait in the tobacco kiosk line (which is always busy) didn't seem like a good idea at the time.

In terms of not responding to people; this is all new to me, and I haven't got the time to reply to everyone.

Do you realise how rude you sound?

OP really doesn’t sound rude.

He does to me.

🤷🏼‍♀️

No I really didn't think I was being rude, nor did I intend to be rude.

Ok.

the “I haven’t got the time to reply to everyone” seemed rude to me.

My husband used to take our daughter into the ladies if there wasn’t an alternative available (he didn’t want her going past urinals or being changed where men could watch). But he would knock and ask the women in there if they’d mind if he escorted her in. Never had a problem.

Sorry if I came across that way

I would mind. And now, being as I am, I would say it too.

The answer is for the men to keep their spaces clean. It’s not for the op to go into the ladies.

If I was you @ThisGreenMoose I’d have complained about the state of the loos on the way out. To a member of staff. Not just by queuing for the kiosk. To a security guard or staff member as I left.

You can always email them now.

As for “I haven’t got time” - so why start a thread and waste everyone else’s? You want a discussion, you need to engage.

As it is, I’m out.

Decent men find a solution that doesn't involve invading women's spaces.

Ask him what he would've done if you had a son?

If I'd heard a male voice ask if they could use the ladies whilst I was in there I probably wouldn't say anything but I'd be extremely anxious about it. Would be scared to decline because they know I'm in there and effectively I'm trapped in a dead end.

The solution is not to ask. Just stay out.

What would he have done if he were told no, you can't come in?

yep you're probably right. Will do it next time.

If someone said no he 100% wouldn’t go in. He asked because he knows it’s not ok for everyone. This was over a decade ago.

But my daughter is female and when she was a toddler she was unable to go in to the female toilets by herself.

DH said he didn’t feel ok taking her into the men’s. He said he couldn’t stand strange men looking at her while he tried to change her nappies in the male toilets, and didn’t want her seeing to male genitalia at urinals.

I am gender critical and I also see his point.

So my husband would ask women first if he could change her in the female toilets if there wasn’t an alternative.

We do have a son. He’d take DS into the males - but still preferring an alternative if possible. But with DD he was acutely uncomfortable.