Pressured to be sterilised vs no intimacy? Expectation or neglect?

[AnotherLostDad]

First I must apologise for the long post but as I am trying to get some help, I prefer to give the full background... So here you go...

The issue:
After our 3rd child (twin second time round) my wife told me to get sterilised if I wanted to have sex... That the procedure was simple and that all of her husband friend had it done... Each time another of her husband's friend went through it. I was reminded that they had it done and that I should speak to them as really, this is not a big deal...

The background:

• 3 kids by IVF as she has blocked tubes
• My Mrs is early / mid 40
• I am late 30..
• We have been together for 16 years.
• 9 years before our 1st child.

My thinking:

• That the probability is low already to have children due to the treatment required to have them....
• Due to her age -no offence to anybody- the pre-memopause / menopause might just be round the corner... (I just have to be patient... :))
• Probability to be pregnant past 40 is getting lower on any case...
• 6 months Clomid treatment which failed might have depleted her egg stock quite a bit...

Surely the probability for her to be pregnant compounded with the low sex frequency (once every 3 years), does not require me to have a vasectomy?? Or am I still unreasonable?

My proposal to her:

• lets go through a pack of 6 not 12, 6 condoms and when this is done I will go through the surgery...

Her answer:

• She does not like condoms and does not want them... Therefore I should get the snip and this is what everybody do...

When she mentioned again to me that I should get sterilised I told her again about the condoms and that maybe we should have sex a bit for a while (6 times) then once the box is gone, I go for the snip...

She then broke into tears asking me how could I and how dare I saying that the lack of intimacy was due to her and that if I loved her I should know how much heartache it would take her to terminate an unwelcome pregnancy considering all what it took to get our children at the first place... She then left the room, went to the bedroom to cry for the rest of the evening...

So where are we on this?
3 years so far with no sex... Well not really, she gave me a hand job 18 months ago and 4 months ago we nearly had a full blown sex only to be pushed away mid course and was asked to finish myself... No full sex since 2009...

Where does that leave me?

• Believing that I am the a##e h##e that I am told I am... For thinking ill things of her...
• I have no friend or family near by to talk to... Well I cannot even phone to them as I always end up paying some silence treatment / cold shoulder if I do... So I don't bother calling them anymore and now they won't call me since I am far away ie 1000 of miles...
• Each time I try to go out with colleagues, which usually happen once or twice a year it is gone with her... However when I am back I am selfish and usually the following day, if I had a few drinks the night before, I cannot have a lie in and need to continue to look after the kids full on as I always do at weekends...

I look well after my children they are everything to me... All my money goes to the house, my kids and my wife (who doesn't work)...

Home fell like walking on constant egg shell, I never seem to do anything right or it is not good enough...

But despite all this, I have family values and therefore stick with it... For better or for worst was the sentence...

I would like intimacy with my wife not only sex but a cuddle would be nice, the lack of it is killing me and maybe if I go through the Op everything will be better? Lately I was also told that I was fat and should take pride in my appearance as without it there is no chance for sex... I am 5'8 and 12 stones 9...

Well this is the crunch, my left brain is telling me STOP don't do it, all this is not right. She would have fully controlled my body by 'forcing' me to do something, which I might regret...

Furthermore would I regain intimacy with her once I am sterilised? She surely will always find another excuse for not having sex as something might not be right again with her...

I am facing large medical bill and I had to remortgage to pay for them...

We are consultant hopping at the moment... None of them are good enough to find what she has, the reason for her breathing problems... For her back pain... For her ankle swelling... Etc etc etc...

What do you think? Have I really lost the plot and am I such the twisted and bitter bast#rd that I am led to believe I am? Or should I go through the op and be a man, like all of her husband friend, who seem so perfect, to regain intimacy with my wife?

mathanxiety I've read many of your posts on MN in the past and agreed with your views. I'm afraid that in this case I think you're totally wrong.

"Making someone participate in a sexual act against her will" Where the hell did you get that from? If the OP's wife is insisting wanting him to have a vasectomy, she clearly isn't ruling out sex with him.

It is clear to me that the wife has some sort of MH issue, possibly PND, possibly stress related. It is clear to me also that all of that is beside the point to ALD. Clearly the lack of sex is not the main problem these two people have.

The big problem will have to be sorted out before there can be any talk of a relationship. The big problem being whatever it is that is wrong with the wife's mental health.

He doesn't say how this woman functions as a mother while unable to have a meal out. He moans about housework, ironing, etc. For him to post as if the big problem is his sex life and his wounded machismo shows misplaced priorities, to say the least.

What about the OP who has been cut off from his family? What about his own MH?

Being in a relationship like this one isn't good for anyone.

Clam, she is ruling out sex with a condom. She could also rule out sex using any other inanimate object as part of the act (broom handles, coke cans) or sex using any other form of unreliable contraception (cling film, latex gloves, withdrawal).
A woman does not have to justify her No to sex.
A woman does not have to service her husband.
A woman does not have to agree to terms for sex that she does not find reasonable even if other women might find them reasonable or at least not objectionable.

It's really an academic question though. Clearly this woman has problems that go beyond sex and sex is not going to resurrect the relationship despite the focus of ALD on it.

Just read the OP again. She told him that he was fat and should pride in his appearance or there was no chance of sex! WTAF!?

^"I would like intimacy with my wife not only sex but a cuddle would be nice, the lack of it is killing me and maybe if I go through the Op everything will be better? Lately I was also told that I was fat and should take pride in my appearance as without it there is no chance for sex... I am 5'8 and 12 stones 9...

Well this is the crunch, my left brain is telling me STOP don't do it, all this is not right. She would have fully controlled my body by 'forcing' me to do something, which I might regret..."^

This is the OP himself saying he is being forced into the operation, so no he is not happy to have it.

Why do you continually say "A woman"? Surely that should say "A person".

"A woman does not have to agree to terms for sex that she does not find reasonable even if other women might find them reasonable or at least not objectionable."

^^ So why then is the man forced to meet her terms? And he says forced in his own words, he does not want this and thinks he will regret it.

Yes indeed, Schrodingers -- this isn't a good relationship. Posting as if sex was the main problem and thinking that making his wife do something against her better judgement and her express wishes regardless of the effect on her feelings for him afterwards is perhaps an indication of how it got to be in such a sorry state.

She's terrified of getting pregnant using condoms and wants him to have a vasectomy. His response is that he'll have one if he can have penetrative sex with her using condoms 6 times first.

That doesn't sound like someone who cares about hugs or closeness. It doesn't sound like someone who cares about sexual intimacy -there are plenty of ways of achieving mutual climax without him putting his penis inside her.

She wont even hug him and calls him fat, I doubt she is going to be up for other ways.

But that doesn't seem to bother him. As long as he gets to use a pack of condoms with her before having surgery.

Does that sound like a normal, genuine response to you?

Wanting to know if she actually wants a sexual relationship with him before he has surgery seems like a normal response.

He has already said he is being forced into this and might regret it, yes, he is definitely tactless but his worries are justified.

I think we're all agreed that his wife has possible MH issues.

But how often do posters start threads on here about one thing and it very quickly transpires to be about something else. I think the OP has demonstrated his concerns about all aspects of the relationship but that the vasectomy stalemate is what prompted him to post.

I also think that any woman posting a similar situation to this would get nothing but sympathy and a fair few "leave the bastard" responses.

Where has it been said (by him) that he's "insisting" on making her have sex 6 times with a condom? It was presumably suggested as an alternative to the snip. How do we know he didn't just say "OK, then" when she said no to them.

The condom issue has now been extrapolated to forced sex!

You talk about her age as a factor for infertility "She will be well mid 40 by then so the V might not even be required" and "Probability to be pregnant past 40 is getting lower on any case" and so on. Yet on the other hand you seem convinced that she is completely infertile aside from age. Which is it? The fact is she COULD end up with an unwanted pregnancy.

The reality for her is that if she were, however unlikely it seems, to get pregnant again she would terminate the pregnancy and does not want to risk going through that.I can understand why she feels that way. As someone who has had ivf and is in her 40s I worry every single time I have sex (and it's not that often) because there is always a chance I might get pregnant and I just cannot cope with a second child, can't afford it and do not want to risk it. I wouldn't ever ask my husband to have the snip though

Your problem is that you don't want to get the snip - and why should you, and she doesn't want to use condoms - and why should she?

However there are so many other things wrong with your marriage.

Is your wife a mumsnetter?

to be fair Clam he mentions sex an awful lot in his first post, details several times how llong it has been etc.

It certainly seemed like the most important thing for the OP.

'Wanting to know if she actually wants a sexual relationship with him before he has surgery seems like a normal response.'

Yes, so relationship counselling, suggesting non penetrative intimacy etc would seem normal responses. Suggesting the thing she fears the most - the whole reason she's asking for him to have the op in the first place - doesn't seem normal. Nor does the glib 'well she's near menopause anyway so I'll wait it out' sound normal when the woman is supposedly criticising his appearance etc.

This thread smells odd.

He complains that he can't have a lie in at weekends after going out for a few drinks.
He complains that all his money goes to the wife and children, medical bills, the remortgaged house, etc. He and his wife have three small children including a set of toddler twins. She has breathing problems, back pain, ankle problems. He characterises a wife who stays home with small children as one who 'doesn't work'.

He talks about getting a babysitter and making a reservation in a restaurant for the failed meal out as if it was a major accomplishment. Methinks this hasn't happened very often.

Then there is this:
'Well birth was as close as nightmarish as you can get, pregnancy bed rest, twins 2 months early, special care etc etc... She did well to bring the baby with only 2 months and of good weight, so they are fine now... Credit to her which I keep on repeating and comforting...

She is seen by way too many doctors but we are jumping from GP to GP, consultant from consultant as they are not good enough to find what she has... Which now start to really make me wonder what is going on...

I am patient, kind, calm and a very understanding person, but I will be the one locked up, with the mouth foaming if it carry on...'

Even in his OP it is clear that this woman absolutely does not want any more children. No ifs ans or buts. No more babies -- she would have an abortion if she were to become pregnant. Clearly there is stress and strain at the very least behind that vehemence and more likely massive anxiety. Women imo do not contemplate abortion lightly. So what is it that makes him ask her to take the chance?

I know 'with the mouth foaming' is a figure of speech, but really and truly, this woman has all the circumstances that can contribute to PND without someone breathing down her neck asking her to take a chance with 6 condoms. It is very likely that she is not happy at the thought of cuddles with this man if he is so focused on sex -- she quite possible thinks he sees a cuddle as a foot in the door, and as many posters have suggested putting sex off the agenda may be necessary in order to rekindle physical intimacy at even that basic level. But it may also be that she is pawed and pulled at all day every day by the toddler twins and the thought of anyone else touching her may be too much, and for him to complain that she is not willing to undergo any more touching may mean he is not being as patient, kind and calm as he thinks he is.

Back problems can be a killer especially with all the lifting involved with toddlers -- in and out of cars, supermarket trolleys, etc. Breathing problems are frightening. Both bespeak stress (but they can come from other causes of course) and if many doctors are unable to find the issue then it is more likely that stress is a factor.

" Women imo do not contemplate abortion lightly. So what is it that makes him ask her to take the chance?"

quite.

agree it smells bad too.

I agree with math re general physical affection which is why I suggested avoiding PIV. To me, the statement "you don't want to use condoms and I'm not ready to have a vasectomy so we won't have penetrative sex until either of those things change" would have been a powerful statement of sympathy on the basis of the OP. subsequent posts have focused more on the other problems and it's right that these get addressed first.

Grazie Mille...
For the input and debate... I might have had some unfortunate wording... But please don't put word in my mouth... Yes indeed there are other issues than the one posted... But I am reminded quite often that I should get it done by her in the middle of a conversation... I am not reluctant to it, just that the intimacy is gone so I am cautious... That from her condition ie she is already sterile it might not be required... But i understand that there is always a risk, which i was trying to rationalise... And came with a suggestion (Everything is relative but no intimacy if that is the right word in 3 years is giving me doubt on the true reason of her motives)... So controversial it might be...

Foolish of me thinking that I will solve it here... However a few suggestions were made, some of which I am taking on board... For me this is a closed case... So please don't fight between each other on what I might have, not have said...

Bottom line, I would like to have a nice, long and fullfiled life with my other half... Call me ignorant and a dinosaur, that is fine... I still believe in the family... Not in the sense that my spouse has 'duties' as it would again misrepresenting me... But in the sense that I should keep it that way and do what ever is possible to make it work...

Yes her behaviour could be questioned, mine as well... But I still feel that I am getting some level of abuse from her and the picture is getting clearer... So will try to get help for her and for me for the sake of our beautiful children... Unfortunately her familly is not in the Uk neither is mine (well if that mattered anyway)... So we are on commun ground here...

That is all... Again thanks for the help and your point of view... Some of which I have agreed to disagree but hey everybody is entitled to their thinking...

Don't go putting words in other people's mouths yourself -- I didn't see 'ignorant' or 'dinosaur' mentioned.

If your mindset is defensive in that way at home then you may be quite a negative person to live with.

You seem to have imagined some scenarios that are not very positive when it comes to your wife's motives instead of listening to what she is saying about her pregnancy fears or looking at her health problems. Why not take the fears at face value and why suspect that she is taking the piss with her back and breathing problems? Why let your mind ramble to suspicions of being dumped after a vasectomy and why wonder about the health thing? You seem to prefer living in your own head to some extent and minimising her problems allows you to do this.

Why all the resentfulness about where your money goes and the expectation that you take care of the children at the weekend and not lie in when she has presumably not been out drinking the night before, and can't lie in either...

Now you throw in the fact that she has no family to help her out with the children or simply to have a reliable friendly face if she wants to chat.

How much else about her life is 'by the way' in your book?

math why are you being so aggressive about this? I really don't see the same person you seem to be seeing from his posts. Give him a break. Sounds to me like he's trying to do the right thing in a very difficult situation. How about a bit of support/encouragement?

I see new details about this woman's life every time he posts; whereas in the OP the salient issue on his mind seemed to be his lack of a sex life we have gradually learned -

• that his wife is upset to the point of considering abortion at the thought of another pregnancy having gone through bedrest and watching premature twins born at 7 months gestation go through all the struggles attendant on such a precarious start,
• that his wife has health problems that doctors are not able to properly get to the bottom of -- breathing difficulties and back pain are no fun,
• that his wife is dealing with her difficulties, which also include twin toddlers, without any family nearby to help her out or just for company -- we do not know if English is her first language or if she is in fact quite isolated; we know she 'doesn't work' but that she has some friends, we don't know if she could get access to meaningful help if she speaks a language other than English as her first language.

I suppose it bothers me that someone could post with his pressing problem (including the at worst rather cruel and at least incredibly insensitive idea of having sex 6 times just to prove something to her or to him or for whatever other reason there may have been) and then include details of his wife's life as if they were irrelevant to the main problem. just as 'by the way' comments that illustrate how put upon he is...

And then there is a lot of rationalising of the situation wrt the condoms vs. the vasectomy. It seems to me that he feels if he is convinced she will not get pregnant, then what is she getting her knickers in a twist for? Her fear of pregnancy and having another baby is real and cannot be simply dismissed by his rationalising.

I agree, she's clearly been through a very difficult time. And sex must be the last thing on her mind, but maybe pressing for a vasectomy is a delaying tactic on her part - not that she should need one, but perhaps she feels she does. It would be some time from the initial referral, to an appointment, to getting the all-clear - buys her some time, I suppose.

But anyway, the sex isn't the most pressing thing to fix. Improved closeness would be nice, but the main thing is to get help/support for all the other shit that's going on. Odd that the doctors haven't managed to diagnose anything. Might have missed this but has PND been suggested/investigated?

The op lists a whole loads of reasons why his wife probably won't get pregnant then asks then suggests that all those reasons mean he should not be expected to have a vasectomy.

The fact is, no one can make him have a vasectomy.

The question he is asking IS about sex and in fact the OP seems more than happy to go for the vasectomy as long as conditions he sets are followed.

I am confused OP, you are happy to have a vasectomy? Or not? Because if you really don't want to do it then why are you trying to strike a bargain which would, if your wife agreed, result in you having a vasectomy.

No Math...

My comments on being old fashion ie a dinausore or ignorant was not from you...

The fear is different... It was mentioned earlier in my thread... I you don't see it then replace 'she' by 'he'...

I walk on egg shell every day... This is was one request amongs many other but since this one is to do something on my body, I just posted for some though and advise and also check if I had lost it... Or being a fool by judging the responses the later seem to be the correct one apparently...

You might not understand where I come from... Don't wish you to experience it either.... I received some helpful advice here and some good link which made me think... Overall it has been helpful.

Sadly taking word out of context will always change the meaning of a sentence...

I think everything was there in the initial post maybe not with the clarity required and prone to interpretation but now I can see clearly and if I was to post it would not be about this but BDP on another forum... As the abuse and control is not new and was there many years back but sadly did no see it...

And you know what, I have enough bad stuff pilled on me at the moment at home I rather not want to keep on receive such abuse in a public manner...

I am going to seek professional advise as it will be better thank you.