Pressured to be sterilised vs no intimacy? Expectation or neglect?

[AnotherLostDad]

First I must apologise for the long post but as I am trying to get some help, I prefer to give the full background... So here you go...

The issue:
After our 3rd child (twin second time round) my wife told me to get sterilised if I wanted to have sex... That the procedure was simple and that all of her husband friend had it done... Each time another of her husband's friend went through it. I was reminded that they had it done and that I should speak to them as really, this is not a big deal...

The background:

• 3 kids by IVF as she has blocked tubes
• My Mrs is early / mid 40
• I am late 30..
• We have been together for 16 years.
• 9 years before our 1st child.

My thinking:

• That the probability is low already to have children due to the treatment required to have them....
• Due to her age -no offence to anybody- the pre-memopause / menopause might just be round the corner... (I just have to be patient... :))
• Probability to be pregnant past 40 is getting lower on any case...
• 6 months Clomid treatment which failed might have depleted her egg stock quite a bit...

Surely the probability for her to be pregnant compounded with the low sex frequency (once every 3 years), does not require me to have a vasectomy?? Or am I still unreasonable?

My proposal to her:

• lets go through a pack of 6 not 12, 6 condoms and when this is done I will go through the surgery...

Her answer:

• She does not like condoms and does not want them... Therefore I should get the snip and this is what everybody do...

When she mentioned again to me that I should get sterilised I told her again about the condoms and that maybe we should have sex a bit for a while (6 times) then once the box is gone, I go for the snip...

She then broke into tears asking me how could I and how dare I saying that the lack of intimacy was due to her and that if I loved her I should know how much heartache it would take her to terminate an unwelcome pregnancy considering all what it took to get our children at the first place... She then left the room, went to the bedroom to cry for the rest of the evening...

So where are we on this?
3 years so far with no sex... Well not really, she gave me a hand job 18 months ago and 4 months ago we nearly had a full blown sex only to be pushed away mid course and was asked to finish myself... No full sex since 2009...

Where does that leave me?

• Believing that I am the a##e h##e that I am told I am... For thinking ill things of her...
• I have no friend or family near by to talk to... Well I cannot even phone to them as I always end up paying some silence treatment / cold shoulder if I do... So I don't bother calling them anymore and now they won't call me since I am far away ie 1000 of miles...
• Each time I try to go out with colleagues, which usually happen once or twice a year it is gone with her... However when I am back I am selfish and usually the following day, if I had a few drinks the night before, I cannot have a lie in and need to continue to look after the kids full on as I always do at weekends...

I look well after my children they are everything to me... All my money goes to the house, my kids and my wife (who doesn't work)...

Home fell like walking on constant egg shell, I never seem to do anything right or it is not good enough...

But despite all this, I have family values and therefore stick with it... For better or for worst was the sentence...

I would like intimacy with my wife not only sex but a cuddle would be nice, the lack of it is killing me and maybe if I go through the Op everything will be better? Lately I was also told that I was fat and should take pride in my appearance as without it there is no chance for sex... I am 5'8 and 12 stones 9...

Well this is the crunch, my left brain is telling me STOP don't do it, all this is not right. She would have fully controlled my body by 'forcing' me to do something, which I might regret...

Furthermore would I regain intimacy with her once I am sterilised? She surely will always find another excuse for not having sex as something might not be right again with her...

I am facing large medical bill and I had to remortgage to pay for them...

We are consultant hopping at the moment... None of them are good enough to find what she has, the reason for her breathing problems... For her back pain... For her ankle swelling... Etc etc etc...

What do you think? Have I really lost the plot and am I such the twisted and bitter bast#rd that I am led to believe I am? Or should I go through the op and be a man, like all of her husband friend, who seem so perfect, to regain intimacy with my wife?

Tough cheese to everyone who thinks this is a matter of rights, conflicting entitlements, etc. One of them is going to have to climb down off their high horse or there will be no sex.

You need another willing participant for sex and getting to the point of willing is going to be the crux of the matter here.

Sex (although it's great fun and a big part of most relationships) isn't going to magically fix anything with or without a vasectomy. Must be hard to have no intimacy but I wouldn't focus on physical intimacy at a time when it seems as though your emotional connection needs strengthening.

Relationships are bloody hard work sometimes.

Relationships combined with Parenting can be a nightmare.

Relationships that involve caring/being cared for are really difficult.

I imagine, although have never been there so can't fully comprehend, IVF is a massively difficult time emotionally.

Your relationship has all these factors and yet it's still going ALD so I'd take a guess that although it's hard (for both of you) it is worth salvaging.

It's worrying that you are cut off from any support networks of your own. Can you not build any bridges with friends or family? Was there more to you losing contact than you have said previously?

You appear to be in it for the long haul so whether your wife wants to join you in getting some counselling or not, perhaps you should seek some. Mumsnet is a great support but sometimes posters need a bit more real life support as well

I'm glad you are rethinking the condom / sex demand. You should drop it completely.

Also you need to stop believing what some wome are telling you here which is that you have gone through an equally traumatic experience as your wife, with IVF, traumatic birth, daily care for preemie twins and so on. You almost certainly haven't. You also need to stop believing (if you do) that sterilisation and contraception are "equal" choices for a man and a woman. They aren't. Hormonal contraception carries profound risks and adverse effects, surgical sterilisation carries greater risks for women.

Also you need to be able to admit to your wife how afraid you are of this operation, and why, and stop blaming her for everything. There's no doubt you're afraid, and there's no shame in admitting it. There's shame in trying to hide your fear behind a demand for six sessions, which you know she'll never agree to, before you go through with it.

Lastly, I don't think you should have this operation now but I think you should be ready to go through with it. I think you should tell your wife you are ready to do it - if that becomes true. Then - what you can say - and not as a part of any dealmaking, or blackmail, or point-scoring - but because it's true - is that you are concerned about having the operation because the relationship is so unhappy. You don't have to blame her. You can't blame her, can you. But it's undeniably unhappy and you want to make that change, and you can ask for her help with going to counselling.

I'm not sorry about being harsh. Your demand to use up six condoms "to get the job going" is completely disgusting. But if the relationship is as bad as you say then Sminko did say it with the first response. Go to counselling. If it's news to you that the six condom rule is wrong then you definitely need it as you definitely have some very odd attitudes indeed. If you have an attitude like that there is almost no doubt that will spill over into your approaches to other emotionally sensitive areas. Go to counselling on your own if she won't go with you. I think even a one-to-one conversation will help you understand some of the underlying problems.

I hope it works out. I don't like reading about marriages that are going very wrong.

Brycie's last post is spot on.

For whatever reasons, your wife does not consent to have sex with you with a condom. She has made that very clear. Her choice is no sex rather than sex with a condom. Please do not try and talk her into consenting to something she doesn't want to do sexually in order to prove something to you. I don't think you want to be that man, do you?

Go to counselling - probably ideally each on your own to start with so you can both get some of your frustrations and fears out without hurting each other. Then work to Rebuild intimacy and take sex off the table at the moment. Condom, vasectomy, whatever - I couldn't have sex with a man with whom I had no day-to-day intimacy so making some progress on that regardless of contraception is vital.

Thank you doctrine and also Sminko for your kind goodnight. Pooka, Mathan and Sminko, I agree with your posts too.

Her request is not unreasonable and you should probably have agreed to it two years ago unless there were already problems in your marriage. Now you have problems you need to sort them out first.

Well thank you.

I must admit I am not as warm as I could be... But if I do, I am pushed away, dismissed... Then later, could be 15 minutes I am told that I am not warm with her... and the circle goes on...

I stopped talking to friend and family due to her cold shoulder silent treatment, each time I did it...

I am constantly reminded that I cannot do anything right and I am continuously put down and dismissed...

I walk on egg shell... I will definitely not force myself on her if you think this, then the point is missed...

It is not all about sex, some would be nice but the whole post was about another of her request and wanted to sanity check it...

Will go to counselling. The difficult part will be to disclose this to her and that is the scary bit... Plates might be thrown at me when I will close the front door... My belonging thrown down the stairs, it won't be the first time...

Nice to know, that in all of this, it was my fault by making such comment to her... Maybe she is more reasonable than I think she is from her reaction in this instance... I need more help than I believe I do and I am the one who has lost it...

The plate throwing and throwing your things down the stairs could really emotionally damage your children, I hope your wife can grow up and behave in a way that is best for the children she tried so hard for.

ALD, your wife is unwell. Whether that is mental, physical or both I don't know. No-one has said her behaviour is reasonable or that it is "all your fault". When i said rebuild intimacy, i meant from both sides, sorry if that wasmt clear.

It may be that your relationship is beyond saving - throwing plates at the door is bad and needs to stop.

Has she had any suggestions of her own, other than vasectomy, to improve things? Does she have friends or family she could talk to? Have her medical assessments included assessment for PND or other types of depression? As you talk of medical bills I guess you are not in the UK.

Many posts have been focused on sex as that was a big part if your first post. You and your wife do have lots of other issues that need to be addressed first.

How exactly does she give you the cold shoulder after you speak to friends and family? Has she said why she doesn't like them?

Having read about IVF, traumatic births etc, I think she may have PTSD (post traumatic stress disorder). She really needs help as many have said, but you need help as well to understand how to help her and yourself. Tough time, and it may be very hard for her to understand that she has a problem

Well cold shoulder is... Not talking to me, for a while after I speak to them... Constantly puting them down... I don't speak to my sister anymore and it kills me... I am going to counselling and if this does not work, then take the next one way flight back home to Italy, leaving everything behind...

She had post natal depression for the first child and the subsequent... It was had on everybody trust me... But she is way better now for this, I feel that now the children are growing for focus is going to change... I don't know which direction... But the name calling, cuting friend familly has always been there since day one, if I look back... I was young maybe inexperienced and did not see it...

Now I am concerned, I have a beautiful family which I love and will do everything for them, and that is the very reason why I won't leave...

But her temperament which initially I found quirky is no more acceptable... I feel it is not right to be treated that way...

I want to help her, maybe to comply with some of her request, such as the one in the posting... But I fear this will not solve anything... I would not dare saying that she should go counselling, me going would be hard enough...

Let's go to work and put the home stuff behind... Many thanks for your comments and point of view.

I'm on the fence with this one.

Firstly, you should absolutely not have a vasectomy if you don't want one, everybody has the right to bodily autonomy. I can imagine the responses on here if a man was demanding his wife be sterilised.

It sounds like you're a good Dad and Husband in practical terms, you pull your weight around the house, work hard, spend plenty of time with your family.

The condom thing is very difficult. You were effectively demanding sex six times which I'm about. Nobody should demand sex. OTOH, I can see why you wouldn't want to be permanently infertile if your marriage didn't survive. I can also see that living in a sexless marriage is difficult. It would be a struggle for me, I need intimacy, most people do.

However, your attitude towards your wife's health is terrible. You come across as dismissive and ignorant. She may have a physical condition, many things take a long time to diagnose. Or, she may have health anxiety, I have suffered with this for a couple of years and it's incredibly difficult to cope with. I struggle everyday with panic and feelings of anxiousness, I sway between periods of seeing doctors constantly because I'm sure there's something wrong and then periods if being too scared to be within a mile of a hospital or doctor in case they do find something. Had my DH had such a dismissive attitude to this, I doubt I'd have been wanting to swing from chandeliers with him, luckily, he's a wonderful man and has been 100% supportive. As a good partner should be.

It seems to me that your marriage has many problems and you should definitely look into counselling. Maybe try and talk to your wife about intimacy, take sex out of the equation for now and get back to communicating, cuddling, maybe some date nights.

It sounds like your DW has been through a lot, not that you haven't, but for her the physical side of things is much more invasive, draining and stressful. You both need some help to work through this stuff and build a future in which you can both be happy.

"ald I think you've been very sporting on this thread with all the shit heaped upon your motives by brycie who has, I think, totally derailed the thread."

Oh get lost. He tried to do a deal demanding six sex sessions.

ALD you have bigger problems than the vasectomy. It's hardly about a vasectomy at all with all that detail about her angry behaviour, plate-throwing and so on.

Why are you even focussing on the vasectomy? Take all the advice you've had on how to make the relationship work. The vasectomy is a side issue.

You can try calling these people for advice if you come back ALD
www.mensadviceline.org.uk/pages/help-and-information-advice.html

PumpkinDublic, Another and Calm thank you.

Lola thank you so much for taking the time to post a detailed answer...
In response to your comment:
"your attitude towards your wife's health is terrible. You come across as dismissive and ignorant."
Sorry to have come accross that way... If you knew me I am neither (dismissive nor ignorant)... Far from it...

Finally let me tell you what I have been up to tonight and this is for Brycie...

Someone mentioned that I should have date night etc... It is very good point so since this week was going to be tough one for her with the School holiday (3 at home etc...) - I still don't understand how single mum do, my hat of to them.. Anyhow-... A few phone call over lunch time and I had a babysitter for tonight and a booking to her favourite restaurant wich was very lucky to have something this week, Monday was not ideal but was the only time due a cancellation...

I told her that it would be nice for us to go midweek and also that it could break up a bit her hectic week...

She was fine with it, lovely in fact... Until when we sat down and I was able to see her staring at her knife... Without a word... Mouth closed... Something was not right... I asked her if everything was fine and she told me that there was a water spot on the knife... That I should be doing something a bout it... I swapped it with mine... No this was not what she was meaning... I need to let someone know about this... So as ridiculous as it was and thinking that I should not dismiss this.. I called the maitre d and ask for new knife as this one was not clean...

Very graciously he went and replaced it.... Then that was it, she started to tell him that in all the time he has been to this restaurant she has never experienced such low standard... In a more colourful English... By then everybody was looking at our table... She told me to do something, backing her up, that this was all my fault, she had such a lovely day with the kids and I had to ruin it for her... The maitre d trying to calm things down agravated it by telling her to calm down and to stop being so irate...

We left... The drive home was silent... When we arrived in the house she went straight to the bedrom slamming the door... and I explained to the sitter who was not expecting us already that she was not feeling good...

I found my bed stuff thrown outside the room so I am sleeping in another room tonight... Clearly I spoiled her day and I was the one responsible for having organising something....

This is what I mean by walking on eggshell...

So Brycie if you are still with me... Your comment saying "the vasectomy is a side issue" well you are spot on... and this was the very reason for the post to validate / invalidate if this was the case... Glad we all came to the same conclusion...

But I did learn a few things in the process and that was very useful... Finaly EuroStar... Drop the euro, you are the star... I did not thought about it before and thank you for the link...

Take care.

So why is this thread about the vasectomy? Why not say - I think there's something terribly wrong with my wife, can anyone help? Instead you just seemed rather pleased with yourself that you were only going to make her have sex with you six rather than twelve times before agreeing to the vasectomy, which now is apparently not what this is about at all.

You have some women here who have validated you. If you go to counselling I hope it is successful.

Why do you want to have sex six times with a condom with this woman?

What is sex about, to you?

Could it really take place in the context of a completely non-existent relationship with a women who by your description is terribly unwell?

(I am x-posting with Brycie here..)

I am so disgusted that women are saying this thing about "give me sex six times and I'll think about it" is ok. Do you people who think this consider yourselves feminists? I consider myself a bit of a soppy liberal femnist but this totally makes my gorge rise.

The six times with a condom thing sounds like a clumsy delaying tactic from someone who is clearly scared of speaking openly and honestly to his partner.

ALD, you mention walking on eggshells quite a few times, also that her reaction to your speaking to family and spending time with friends is so negative that you have stopped contact to placate her. Finally, this description of an evening out with your wife sounds frankly horrific.

I don't think you want your wife to unwillingly submit to sex six times before you have a vasectomy but that you are too scared too discuss your real feelings with her because of her volcanic behaviour.

There may be many reasons for the way she is treating you. You have both been through a lot in recent years. I am not going to condemn her but her conduct towards you is manifestly unfair and appears to be quite bullying and controlling.

I do not think you should have a vasectomy until you feel comfortable with the idea but, more importantly, I would urge you to find a counsellor you can both trust to get to the bottom of why your relationship has become so unhappy.

What you are describing sounds like an utterly miserable existence for you both.
What were things like when you were good together? You say she has always had issues with your family. Is there a reason or does she generally resent you spending time with others?

If you can remember how things were when they were good, you can perhaps see a path to a better future. There is a lot more going on here than your sex life and you need to address this underlying unhappiness first.

Good luck and I hope you feel more positive about finding contentment within your marriage.

Your wife doesn't own your body. IMO she's within her rights to ask you to have a vasectomy but can't tell you to.

If she is so adamant that she won't have sex with you when using a condom or other form of contraception, and is too scared to run the risk of becoming pregnant, she has the option of sterilising herself. Have you discussed the possibility of a hysterectomy with her?

I agree all round that this is a way bigger issue than sex but perhaps showing her the flip side of what she's demanding from you, might give her some perspective.

I can't believe how sexist people are being.

If it was a woman posting saying her husband is never affectionate with her at all, cuts her off from her family by sulking and said when they went out for a dinner he made a scene about a knife being dirty and then threw bed stuff at her at home and told her to sleep alone you'd all be telling her to "leave the bastard"!

I don't think the condom thing is all that bad. No where is he saying he's going to force himself on her or pressure her into sex. He's just saying let's get the condoms and see if we actually use them otherwise what is the point in getting the snip? That seems fair enough to me. This isn't a new situation here - this has been going on for 3 YEARS !!

I think the ops wife has serious health issues and possibly some mental health issues but I don't think the op deserves the bashing he's received. Living with someone like that sucks the very soul out of you and you can start off with all the sympathy in the world but in the end they have to want to help themselves.

I also think it's very unfair to suggest the op should consider a relationship without piv sex if that is important to him as it is to many people - me included and I'm a woman!!

I suppose I can see what you're saying. But it's clear that he does care for her otherwise why would he have stayed with her these last 3 years otherwise? It's obviously not just a "let's have sex 6 times" issue otherwise he'd be divorced or having an affair... and certainly not posting here.

I think sometimes people just get to the end of their tether and say things wrong and it can come across insensitive when really they're just exasperated.

Eh? If my dh wouldn't have sex with me for three years, I wouldn't go on the pill never mind have surgery. What would be the point?
Op, get some counseling.