Dad 89 won't listen, health failing, lies to people

[paulfoel]

He tells me he can't cope. Says the same to my brother (we don't speak long story).

I got social services to visit and he told them the opposite. Hes fine.

Yesterday, got a call from the Lifeline people he'd fallen over. I drove over my brother was there also (first time I'd spoken in 2 years). Turns out Dad has fallen 4-5 times recently and called my brother. Didn't tell me.

I'm furious, hes lying to everyone. No idea what hes playing up.

I've told him 100 times I cannot pick him up off the floor anyway. (I've got back problems, got blue badge for it).

Every time its always "my sons will do it". Hes refused carers in the past. He just will not get it out of his head that we can't do everything for him.

To be honest, hes better off in a nice residential home. BUT hes stubborn about that.

Hes got almost £50K in the bank but obsessive about not spending any of it.

From what I understand, I can't force anything, even if his stupid decisions are causing problems for himself. Whether hes mentally capable is borderline at the moment I'd say.

Any suggestions/recommendations?

From what you have described itsounds like he's got dementia @paulfoel
It is very difficult when a person with dementia won't cooperate and I'm afraid you might have to wait until there's a crisis. Unless he has lost capacity he can make unwise decisions I'm afraid.

Regarding the LPA, you may need to have some difficult discussions. If he falls and injures his head tomorrow, you and your brother won't be able to step in to make sure his bills are paid.

I would suggest you and your brother lead by example. It's not just elderly people who need to make arrangements in case something happens to affect their capacity. We all do.

It's like a first aid kit, or insurance. Something we all need to have, even though we hope to never use it.

Yeh I can see that now. Maybe it would have been an idea to let him sit on the floor for hours and/or have his front door kicked in.

The events of the weekend have been swept under the carpet now never to be mentioned again. Hes completely forgotten that his stubborness not accepting help and carrying on as normal causes all this.

Can you persuade him to keep a spare key in a keysafe outside? Saves doors being kicked in.

To be honest, I'm at the point where I think "just get on with it then".

I have no power to do anything, he won't listen no matter how hard I try. I'm just getting stressed about while he think he can carry on as normal and everything will be fine.

He got tested for dementia a few years back and sailed through it. I'm wondering if it'll be the same again.

I know you're all saying its dementia but I'm not so sure. A lot of it with Dad is plain old stubborness and downright stupidity with him I'm sure.

He often tells me hes depressed. He probably is. I tried to get him to talk to his GP - guess what I got told? "I'm not talking to my GP, they'll have me locked up in a padded cell like some sort of nutter". I tried to explain it wasn't like that but then I got told "You've made me feel worse, its all your fault, for trying to tell me I'm mental". What do you say to that?

I could tell you some stories about how hes behaved over the years. My wife and kids don't speak to him - his fault he had MANY chances but wouldn't stop doing what he was doing. His friends now all avoid him. His neighbours all avoid him. Even his own sister is avoiding him now. Hes oblivious to it all but its the way he treats people so badly.

The amount of stress he causes me is unreal to be honest. I've had this for 15-20 years maybe.

Its shit isnt it?
At the moment the only consequences for his behaviour are positive (negative for you). You need to make sure there are some negative consequences for him as well

Do you know what I think that might be the answer?

He gets to sit there at home, decide what he wants and what he doesn't want, click his fingers and his sons come running. There are no negative consequences for him at all.

I've started to put my foot down now. Its just nuts....
I think I said, I live 30 mins or so away (about an hour in rush hour!). He STILL asks me to take him to hospital appts at 9am etc. No matter how many times I tell him I cannot do it - got 10 yr old to get on school bus at 830am its physically impossible.

All I get is "well can you make an effort". You what????
Last time I sorted out patient transport and he went on that. The moaning was unbelievable. How it took ages (not sure what he thinks but I've not got a helicopter its the same traffic jam). Hes decided now someone HAS to take him from now on - not happening.....

Thats his attitude always - the problem is not his its yours to sort on his behalf. For 15 years I've stressed over this, made myself ill, almost got divorced because I put him first. No more now.

Next time he falls he'll be on the floor waiting for the ambulance for hours. Then he might realise somethings got to change.

I suggest you stop saying your elderly father is playing up, stupid, stubborn, obsessive and a liar. You don't like him, you've involved social services, now back off and leave the poor man alone. He obviously prefers your brother anyway as he calls him and confides in him rather than you.

@Neverpostagain wind your neck in. I work in healthcare and have seen this dynamic played out many, many times over my 30 year career. You obviously have no idea what its like to try to help a parent who will only accept help on their terms , usually at the expense of their own quality of life and putting a huge burden on the family.
@paulfoel Unfortunately I no longer work in the UK so cannot offer any more advice than you have already received.

Thats pretty unfair and I dont think you should judge until you are in OPs shoes.
Not all old people are twinkly grannies/Grandpas, they are perfectly capable of being narcisssistic areseholes and can in fact be more so as they get older. He probably confides in the brother as he is more inclined to put up with his nonsense.
OP sounds at the end of his tether and I think he knows what his father is like better than the rest of us

Thank you @Hoppinggreen @Neverpostagain I think you should follow you're own advice here. That was a nasty thing to post.....

Thanks @Newyearoldhair Yes exactly.....

Its a long story but I've had massive issues with my own kids, and wife over the last 10 years where they've needed me AS WELL. Dad has never given a monkeys..... He even said once that was my problem not his and he expected me to put him first.

I did for years until I eventually realised the way it was going. I would have ended up going the way I think he always plans having no kids, no wife.

If I had a pound for every time I heard "But your poor old Dad, you've got to help him" I'd be very rich.

OK I'll bite. Do I like him? NO hes a massive selfish A@rshole.
Will I abandon him ever. NO hes still my Dad.

Got a question for you. It might be theoretical who knows. You're teenage son whos got mental health problems and Aspergers has smashed the house up again, got violent at home. You're wife is MUCH smaller than him, hes also got a 4 year old little sister at home.

Do you

A) Tell your family, ah you'll be fine, they didn't have Aspergers years ago so its all made up. Give you son a smack across the back of the head to make him wake up. You're poor Dad doesn't want to go to the event you organised for him because he really wants you to take him out for a "drive around" because you need to "try a bit harder because I need to put him first". So you bail out and leave the family at home for the afternoon.

B) Tell Dad you're sorry but there are other people who rely on you as well and you can't do everything. Tell him you'll do what you can. And ignore his nasty comments.....

Just wondered ?

Hi @paulfoel did you post about the same thing a few months ago ?
If so that's ok you can post as much as you want, but the situation hasn't changed.
There is no magic solution where your DF suddenly starts being reasonable or appreciative of what you're doing. So you need to put your own boundaries in for what you believe to be reasonable and ignore his complaints, and yes sometimes that might involve leaving him in a less than ideal situation because you have to prioritise your own families health and wellbeing.

Sadly, an elderly person on the floor is a low priority unless they have an obvious injury.

Yes so it seems. Tried to explain that to Dad but nope he doesn't care because his sons can sort him out.

Like I said, I can't but he doesn't listen to me telling him this.

IME you have to be in the room with the parent and social services and when the parent says - everything is fine - you challenge. Oh come on Dad you've fallen over 6 times this week, with Jeff picking you up twice and 4 ambulance calls. When he says My son will sort it out - oh no he won't Dad and neither will I as I work FT and have 4 kids.

Telling SS separately you will not be there doesn't seem to get thru the paperwork. You have to be in the room. I totally accept he's scared, but denial never sorted anything out

MY DP has had this with his parents and me with mine.

My parents had an assessment booked and I stayed over the night before. Long chat with Dad who was very upset, saying he couldn't cope any more with my DM's dementia. Totally understandable. Let's get help Dad. Next morning social worker asks how things are and his answer in effect was oh fine, mustn't grumble. Could have lamped him one.

Request an assessment - be there and be prepared to challenge. This may not make you the most popular person in the room but if someone is so frail they are falling over pretty much daily, the time for pussyfooting around has well passed.

Our LO wouldnt hear of a carer. Then when the DR said no more driving we got a ‘driver’ ( a private carer) who ended up driving them to the shops etc and also generally helping out. Any chance your Dad would accept that? It all sounds so hard, stay strong.

Yes tried that one time before - the Social people still listened to what he said and ignored me.

Hes just so stubborn. I'm at the point where I think, I'll do what I can to help, but if you continue to make it difficult to do that then you'll have to live with the consequences you cause.

I empathise OP - and I agree with pp that really it has to get to a crisis before things happen. I apologise for the length of this, but there are so many similarities.

We had this with my uncle (unmarried and no children) who lived over an hour's drive away. Not quite the same as with you as, with me not being his child he wasn't expecting me to do stuff, but the neighbours were concerned he wasn't managing, his house was in a state, his garden - well put it this way, I didn't realise he had a shed in the back. Milk bottles with sour milk piled up, bins not put out but overflowing all the same. Obviously struggling to walk. My mother (also in her mid 80s) would phone and he would tell her all was fine, he had been doing the garden and tidying up - all lies - utter lies! Put us off visiting saying he would be out until one day we just rocked up and we were shocked. Piled up rubbish in the kitchen, dead flies, broken fridge/freezer full of rotting food - at this point I'm in my 60s, and whilst up for some tidying, wiping and hoovering, this was beyond me, never mind my poor Mum. We did what we could (including emptying that fucking fridge/freezer - I was heaving) and came home and started trying to get him help.

Upshot was we tried to involve social services, told him to accept help - he would agree to our face and then refuse all help, wouldn't let them in the door. We spent hours on the phone and we may as well have pissed into the wind. The only good thing was the doctor - I wrote to his GP expressing my concerns whilst understanding things were confidential, and the GP did visit and do what he could (uncle did let him in - I think he thought it was a social call).

One neighbour was very nice and genuinely supportive, but the other (a police officer too, who I thought might have understood the situation better) phoned me and rather snottily told me that something had to be done as he couldn't go on like this. I asked her to suggest something I could do that I hadn't already done more than once - she tried a few suggestions, I told her that I'd already done those and why they hadn't worked, and she rang off moaning. The bottom line is that he had capacity and was allowed to refuse - even if it was to his detriment - and refuse he did. He refused all help, lied to all the agencies who tried and lied to us. In despair I asked the GP what usually happened in these situations, and he said in his experience a crisis usually arose - maybe a fall or a broken bone - and things usually changed from there.

In fact a few months later the neighbour couldn't get an answer from him and phoned me. I phoned the police, they did a welfare check and he was found dead in front of his TV. He was 89 so a good age, but I still think had he engaged with those people trying to help him, he would have had a good few years more.

Interestingly, when I phoned the police officer who attended the scene, he said how shocked he was at the state of the house (and a little judgmental I think too). He said they'd had to wear masks because of the fridge/freezer which we'd emptied. Apparently uncle had just carried on using it like a cupboard. I told him we had moved heaven and earth to try and get him help, but that he had steadfastly lied and refused all help and SS had been happy to leave it at that.

Do as pp have said, be clear and consistent with him and any agencies (hospital, social services etc) and ideally in front of both parties, that you cannot help due to your own health, the distance and family commitments. If he says he's fine, point out the ways he so obviously isn't. There isn't any more you can do.

But I feel for you, it's a shite situation.

Thanks Fridge - all sounds very familiar as I've found out. Thats exactly pretty much what SS have told me - hes allowed to make decisions no matter how bad they are.

They were there literally 2 weeks ago, so they've said they won't go again unless somethings changed. Thats fair enough they can't be wasting time when people are fannying around.

It did surprise me at the lengths he went to deny any help. He did let them in though. Normally, it smells bad in his house (well its him because he doesn't wash) and he wears clothes literally for weeks on end. He'd washed, changed his clothes etc so they thought he was fine.

I get what you say as well. Everyone looks at you as if to say "do something". Or the one I hate "But hes your Dad you've got to look after him".

Other than leaving my wife and kids and moving in with him theres nothing I can do.

SS basically said that to me too - until a "crisis" happens then nothing is going to get done. I probably need to accept that is going to be next.
Trouble is, long story, hes on an ambulance blacklist (well hes certainly on his GP blacklist they refuse to do home visits any more) now because of the times hes wasted they're time. I've had "can't breathe, chest pain" probably 50 times from him and rushed over - not once was it even anything slightly serious.

I've made peace with the fact that one day hes going to call me, the GP, ambulance and then hes going to be dead in the chair and we're all going to think "Oops he was ill this time".

Realised today that its 5 days now and I'm wound up/worried about what happened and how hes going to manage. Spoke to him last night, its all forgotten about and swept under the carpet.

Not the best thing to have such negative feelings towards your parent because of what they do to you like this but I don't think he cares.

This week I've been so stressed, taken it out on my family and kids, its got to stop I know.... I'll end up off work with stress the way this is all going.....

Essentially you and your brother need to gang up on him and move him into a nursing home or other suitable accommodation, if necessary without his consent. I was able with my brother to move my mother to a nursing home near me.

I don't know the circumstances of course @user1471505356 but we simply couldn't overrule my uncle - we didn't have POA and he just refused, we couldn't drag him there and they wouldn't have accepted him if we had (and we would probably have got arrested).

OP you have to prioritise your family (ie children and wife) and explain to your father each time why you can't do whatever it is he is asking. Think of a sentence which covers it all, and use it every time. As for those people who are telling you that you have to look after him because he's your dad - think of some replies for them too, or ignore them because they aren't offering to help out are they. Something like yeah yeah, I need to abandon my wife, children and job and move in with him. Or yeah, I'm sick of people who have no idea what my life is like telling me what I should do. I wouldn't mind offending a few of these people - they aren't your friends and it might shut them up.

I am always interested to know if people like your dad did this for their parents. Sometimes they have, which is more difficult, but it was usually because they were more local or maybe they weren't working or had the space and not many other responsibilities. But in other cases they weren't expected to - maybe their parents didn't live that long, but I know that my uncle (and my parents) weren't having to worry about their own elderly parents when they were in their 60s. In fact they didn't have to take responsibility for them at all, as it happened. I was lucky with my parents, it was only right at the end (during the pandemic) that they took ill and died - I moved in with them but it was only for about a week or 10 days before the went into hospital. But my parents were both way more reasonable that your dad sounds.

I wonder if you had a sister if your dad would have been putting the pressure more on her? I felt my parents, reasonable though they were, expected more of me in that area than of my brother.

wow!