Overheard my mother talking to my sister

[Thegreengreengrassofhomes]

Currently staying with DM (93). I have been living abroad for 12 years but we have been thinking about moving back home to be closer to DM & have been looking into schools etc for DC (aged 9 and 10). DM is very independent but we have been visiting regularly since covid (long-haul flight away) and I’ve been helping with lots of things which have enabled her to stay safe & independent.

My sister and I have never been close. Sister has a high-powered job, also lives abroad but can’t visit DM as often or move home to help her due to her work. DH & I can continue to do our jobs in either place, so things are easier for us in that sense.

Since I first mentioned the idea of moving back a few months ago, DM hasn’t seemed very enthusiastic. I have asked her about this and she said she was worried about my dc’s education. The school systems in both countries are fairly similar and dc would be attending good private schools either way, so this didn’t make much sense to me.

I’ve just overheard DM on the phone to my sister, talking about me as though I were an inconvenient house guest (I have spent the week helping her with all sorts of quite serious practical things). She then started to discuss my planned move in a very disparaging, negative way. She mentioned that it was a bad idea but that unfortunately she “wouldn’t have any say in the matter.” At that point I went out into the garden to compose myself!

I’ve always found that my DM has a habit of telling people what she thinks they want to hear, so I’m rather curious why she was saying these things to my sister.

Had she been as frank with me, I would have dismissed the idea of moving. I was becoming resigned to it and DH/DC were starting to talk about with more enthusiasm but we are actually much happier where we are and certainly not bothered if the move doesn’t happen.

The whole idea was just about helping my DM. I am DM’s primary POA if anything happens to her, and I felt that she would be able to stay independent for longer if I were nearby.

Just wondering if anyone can offer any words of wisdom as I’m feeling quite hurt and confused.

OP it doesn't really matter why she said it. Either she means it or she's saying it because that's what your sister wants to hear - neither are a good look on her part.

The absolute facts are that she did say it and you heard. If she's prepared to let those words out of her mouth she has to be prepared to be challenged. You could have found out anyway, depending on who else she says it to.

I'd be straight with her. Don't try skirting round it or asking indirectly; she can (deliberately or otherwise) misunderstand. Better to get it out in the open than spend the next few years wondering. You know you heard it so stick to your guns if she tries to say she didn't. Or if she says that you must have misheard - no you didn't. And if she point blank denies it I'd take that as a cue to tell her that you know what you heard and you won't be troubling her again, if she won't even take responsibility.

Well… in the real world you may be right, but in the alternate universe of where mothers like @Thegreengreengrassofhomes and mine dwell… they will just bare faced lie to your face and tell you that they said no such thing, then get emotional and make it all about them and how mean you are.

@Thegreengreengrassofhomes do you think it’s worth raising with her? Just get your visit concluded and leave to go back to your home and life

I asked my mother why she’d excluded me from all communication about her house move (hundreds of miles) the replay was that we were never that close. Our relationship ended there and then pretty much.

if you think this will blow up, you would be totally justified not to pull her up on this. I wouldn’t recommend or wish that level of hurt on anyone. Just get yourself home, you can lick your wounds in your own home and with your family

(((huge hug)))

When you mentioned moving back did you ask her if she would want the help or need extra support at home?
If she wasn't part of the decision making maybe she went along with it bit wasn't happy with it.

It could be and age thing also. My DG was awful for this. She would act so independent despite health issues snd ignored Drs warnings to allow family to visit / stay and not to travel alone.
DM suggested she movea in with us and she said responded she wouldnt do that and she will leave when she dies.

She was very stubborn and liked her independence deapute struggling at times.
I think as much as we want to jump in and save them. Without their express wishes and say so you can't make such a big change.

I am having those talks with DM & DF as they live far away. Health issues etc moving closer and they are not keen. History repeating itself. Not much we can do.

Havent RTFT but I've read all your updates. This sounds like a lot of the very elderly people I've come across. My dad was fantastic, kind, generous, would do anything for me and I couldn't wish for a better dad, until his 80s when he could be quite upsetting to be around. I became quite reactive to his criticism, sometimes with good reason, sometimes without good reason, just because of the damage to our relationship caused by the regular upset. He died during covid and I'd give anything to go back and be nicer to him the last few years. He must have been so scared and lonely, and his brain didn't have the same filter it had when he was younger. I had no such excuse. If your mum is 93 its likely you'll not get a fully rational response, and being blunt, you don't have time to piss around on petty arguments you might not be able to resolve. It sounds like you've been close in the past, treat that as the evidence of her love for you, no matter "how well she's doing for 93" her brain is 93 and she won't be as rational as someone younger. She may be saying what she thinks people want to hear, or lashing out through fear of what needs to come next. Either way, don't have regrets, the time you've got now might be hard but it's a bonus many people aren't lucky enough to have.

I am sorry you have endured this emotional [low] blow OP, and are now having to navigate it. Families can be so strange, so many secrets and lies.

Do you think your DM would be upset and horrified if she knew you had overheard her? Would she be upset because your feelings were hurt, or because her two-facedness had been exposed? Or would she go into denial mode?

My paternal DGM was a prolific liar and misrepresenter of the facts. (I was going to say 'terrible liar' but she was actually very good at it, very convincing!) I used to get upset when I was younger because, during our visits, she always waxed lyrical about what a wonderful DS my uncle was, and heavily implied that my DF was rubbish.

Her distortions and manipulations were gradually revealed as she aged, because the family came together more often to take care of her needs. Evidently she had been saying the same things to my uncle about his brother, for decades.

More disturbingly, one day she shared with DM and I her devastation at having miscarried a baby girl. On a later date when I again expressed my sympathy for her loss, she flat out denied it had ever happened or that she had ever said it.

None of us really understand why she felt compelled to behave this way, but I am sure it had it's roots in an emotionally dysfunctional childhood.

If my little baby goes off and lives a wonderful life abroad I would NOT want him coming home to look after me, my grandparents wouldn't want this nor my parents. Could it just be this? Either way definitely scrap your plans!

I got the sense that your mum was against the idea from the get go and you knew it. She might not have articulated herself well, but you knew she wasn't on board, and you know she's not the type to come out and say it to your face even when asked directly. Yet you ploughed on with the idea anyway.

Your heart was in the right place for sure, but I can see how she could have felt railroaded. The good thing is you now know where you stand, and in time to back off the idea without any fuss.

I am slightly alarmed that your sister is sole executor. DB and I were joint executors of DM's will, together with DM's solicitor.

And why not have joint and several POA? Although it would involve discussion with your sister if it/they had to be activated. Is it POA for both finances and health - these are two separate things?

Sounds like you are to be lumbered with the day to day stuff, should POA be activated, while sister gets to oversee the estate after DM dies.

It can be scary the idea of losing your independence and you can vent your frustrations to people hoping it stays with just them which is possibly what she was doing.

She knows she's going to need more help as she ages but it's hard to put that on people, especially when the idea reminds you of your own mortality.

Pride before a fall

My guess OP, reading this, is that she is stubborn, doesn’t want to feel reliant or a burden on you, and she doesn’t want the guilt of the grandchildren having their lives uprooted. In your shoes, I would outsource the help. Have a housekeeper call in with her every second day or so, until she requires more care?

I would have shouted out then at there “I can hear you talking about me”. The fact you’ve overheard needs to be out in the open ASAP, don’t sit on it and mull it over, it could ruin your relationship.

It isn't unusual to have just 1- it was recommended to us by the solicitor with the 2nd as the back up.

@Thegreengreengrassofhomes
Unfortunately as the saying goes the more you do the less your thought of, and the less you do the more your thought of, always rings true for me. As you say ur sis does little but gets praised, you do it all but get nothing.

Ask your mum outright if she likes the situation and visits as thry are if it'd be better for her if you were closer. Tell her you want her to be honest with you because you're going to turn your life upside down in moving back home so you're doing it to help her more if or when she needs help. You won't be living in her pocket.

I think your mum isn't being honest with eother of you.

Some people are just two-faced and shallow, even mothers!

It’s honestly not worth fathoming why or the injustice of it because it’s part of their makeup.

You sound like an extremely loyal daughter, but sadly your DM isn’t loyal to you.

It’s a very horrible realisation for you.

Also two is company and three can be a crowd. Your mother is probably playing you off against your sister.

Whatever you do don’t move.

OP, she's an incredible age but the day will come when she can't cope on her own any more. Have any of you discussed what will happen then?
I think you have to have a convo with your DSis, about what you over heard and if you didn't move here, what would happen in a crisis?
A lot of elderly people proudly keep hold of their independence and hate relying on anyone else, even close family. My own DM didn't like to put anyone out, never outright asked but moaned about my sibling not helping. She was probably doing that in reverse about me, despite continued offers of help. I often felt hurt by her rejections of my offers to help and when she died, I honestly wished I'd ignored her and done more. Don't be me.

To put a different spin on it, is DM maybe worried that she'll become a burden to you? Elderly people worry terribly about that and never seem to like to admit when the time comes that they need more help. Is she hoping that keeping the status quo she will maintain her autonomy and independence?

You mum is used to living alone. She will miss you when you have gone but not when you are there

For your sake and the ake if your family IE OH/Children/etc DO NOT MOVE CLOSE TO MUM

Yes, if and when mum is unwell, being closer helps. Trust me, it will not end well if you move in closer to her

Your mum, your choice

Count this as a huge blessing, you’ve found out now and rather than the massive upheaval and the fact that you’d rather not actually move, you can stay where you are, brilliant! Mine keeps saying she wishes I was nearby, but I’d put a serious kink in her plans by moaning at her for her drinking/smoking, I’d drive us both nuts!

Could the answer be much simpler- she’s worried about you uprooting your life for her as she’s 93. Particularly if you’re settled where you are. There’s a difference between ‘I don’t want you here as I don’t love you’ and ‘I don’t think this is the best place for you because I love you’.

As for the way she communicates to your sister potentially she is trying to please her or ensure she doesn’t feel bad for not moving closer herself. As she’s quite independent from what you have said maybe she is just frustrated by you staying for a while as she feels like her independence isn’t the same. Obviously that wouldn’t be as intense if you move closer but were living in your own home. To be honest as you said your mum has a habit of always saying what she thinks people want to hear I was more concerned as to why she would think you’re sister would want to hear this.

Must have been very galling to overhear the conversation, OP. Glad to see you're putting it into some kind of context and not immediately flouncing out. From my experience with elderly relatives I'd say some are fiercely independent and like to maintain the facade that everything's fine and they don't need help while relying heavily on others at the same time. If I live that long I'll probably be the same, complaining about the people who are helping me while actually hugely relieved that they're around.

If I were you I'd give it 24 hours to let my dudgeon subside, then have two conversations, one with my mum and one with my sister. I might talk to my sister first: just say look, I heard Mum talking to you yesterday and I was surprised because she's given me the impression she'd quite like to have us living nearby and helping out. There's been a lot of work needing to be done here. I'm happy to ditch our plans to relocate but have you and she talked about buying in some support? Is there a plan? What's your take on the situation?

There may be things afoot you don't know about and it may come as news to her that you've had to help out significantly because your mum may not have told her that.

After that I'd have a calm chat with your mum and make it clear that if she doesn't want you and the family to relocate that's fine, and ask the same questions — does she have anyone lined up to help, is there a plan?

Only you know the family dynamic and whether there's some kind of game being played but there doesn't have to be. I think it's important to try and imagine how hard it might be to be so old, so frightened of dependency and so aware that one is struggling and failing. My 91-year-old DBIL, once a great bear of a man who could do anything around the house is now shrunken, unsteady on his feet, deaf, poorly coordinated and wept with humiliation at not being able to change the bathrooms taps — something he would once have done without thought. It's hard losing skills, dignity and independence. Good luck.

That's a really helpful insight. I had the same feelings after my mum died. Hugs.

I have a friend 'Jane' who visits her mum once a month from abroad. Friend's sister 'Sian' doesn't visit at all as it's all "too much for her"
Friend's mum told her friends that my friend was Sian and is lovely as she makes time to visit.

Said Jane was selfish and never visits.

Wasn't until friend's mum was ill in bed and my friend got chatting to some of her friends who came to see her and found this out.

Made her out to be the uncaring daughter even though she was the one up and down visiting.

She is very much on it, no mental health issues whatsoever, yet she made this up as Sian was always the golden child.

Basically OP, parents can surprise you in ways you never imagined.

I'd ignore it and do what feels right to you.

I’m just confided as to why your sister only sees your 93 year old mother once a year.

It sounds like you see her more often even though you live abroad. Is that right? And if so, why?

I remember my mum in her 90s.
She got cattier & bitchier.
And she couldn’t keep a secret. She told me absolutely everything my sister told her about her private life with my BIL. Therefore, I revealed nothing of my own life to my mum.
I really would be tempted to have a word with your mum about just why she was so blunt and disrespectful about you on the phone to your sister and why she neglected to tell her about all the assistance you’ve given her.
Then I’d assure her that she needn’t worry about your moving there - or your troubling her much in the future again.
And I’d get it on your phone’s camera.
It never hurts to have backup.