Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Elderly parents
Original poster

Siblings want to put mum in a home

286 replies

Florencenightingalewasfab · 01/02/2023 23:01

( I'll split this into two posts as it's quite long)Mum ( now in late 70's) sold her home and gave all the money to my sister for a 2 bed 'granny flat' ( to be built on the side of my sister's home. Sister took her money and built mum a ONE bedroom extension and also managed to gain a new bedroom into the bargain. So mum didn't get what she wanted and no one could come to stay in "her" flat, Sis used the 'extra' bedroom in her house - sorry - I digress. Mum dud this on the understanding that she wouldn't have to go into a ( old people's home ). Mum also gave full access to BIL and sis to her bank account

OP posts:
ChilliBandit · 02/02/2023 09:52

MereDintofPandiculation · 02/02/2023 09:47

It might come under Gift with Reservation of Benefit, since DM has continued to live in the extension. In which case it would still be regarded as part of DM’s estate for IHT purposes. This is a closing of the loophole whereby people would sign over their house to their children while continuing to live in it.

Re deprivation of assets: a zealous LA would be interested in where the money came from to pay for the extension, and where the money from the sale of DM’s house had gone to

Show quote history

Yes it would be unless the Mum paid the sister a market rent which doesn’t sound like the case here.

AllOutofEverything · 02/02/2023 09:52

MereDintofPandiculation · 02/02/2023 09:47

It might come under Gift with Reservation of Benefit, since DM has continued to live in the extension. In which case it would still be regarded as part of DM’s estate for IHT purposes. This is a closing of the loophole whereby people would sign over their house to their children while continuing to live in it.

Re deprivation of assets: a zealous LA would be interested in where the money came from to pay for the extension, and where the money from the sale of DM’s house had gone to

Show quote history

I agree. Especially as I doubt she has been paying market rent to her daughter.

SheilaFentiman · 02/02/2023 09:53

Fair point re the reservation. TBC if DM is over the IHT threshold, I guess!

AllOutofEverything · 02/02/2023 09:53

And the fact it is straight after seven years will make them more likely to see it in this way.

safetyfreak · 02/02/2023 09:56

You sound resentful, it appears your sister been the sole carer for your mum for 7 years. She has tried to get your mother to engage with carers and medical professionals yet she is refusing? how is this your sister fault?

Also 7 years ago your mum had capacity and willingly gave money to your sister so she can live with her-again I do not see the issue here.

If your mum care needs cannot be met by your sister then she needs a adult social care assesment.

AllOutofEverything · 02/02/2023 09:59

Greenfairydust · 02/02/2023 08:50

I think your muddling to different issues here:

  • I can see that your sister has not behaved well
  • but at the same time you seem to expect her to care for your mother on her own 24/7 while your mother is refusing help from carers or any device that would make it safer.

Your mother also needs to be reasonable. If she is not willing to go into a home she needs to accept carers and devices will need to be put in place.

The problem is also that this is your sister's home and your mother can't just insist that she wants to stay there.

So people who are saying ''she can't be forced into a home'' are forgetting that aspect of the problem. Your sister can very easily say to social services that she is no longer able to cope and that your mother needs to be placed in a home.

If she is assessed by SS as not needing to be in a home, then they can force her home. Home though may be a privately rented flat that the mother has to pay for through her pension. If the sister effectively makes her mother homeless then the local authority will help her find a rented home. But people do not get put into residential homes just because they are homeless.

State do not usually pay for a residential home unless someone requires more than 4 visits a day by carers. She sounds unlikely to meet that threshold and if she says she does not want to go into a home this will be taken into account.

MereDintofPandiculation · 02/02/2023 10:00

7 years is the cut off usually for an outright gift. Not for a gift with reservation of benefit, perhaps where the donor lives rent free, or at less than market rent, in an extension built with the money she has “gifted”.

Well if your mum is refusing reasonable medical advice, your sister is quite right in saying she needs to go into a home. The lady has capacity. She can’t be moved into a care home against her will. She has the right to make “bad” decisions. What she doesn’t have the right to do is insist her family look after her.

Gazelda · 02/02/2023 10:03

Maybe you offer to take a week AL and stay with DM while your sis and her DH have some respite from caring responsibilities.

This will give you chance to see what caring needs she has.

scorcio5 · 02/02/2023 10:04

saraclara · 02/02/2023 09:33

The other two siblings, who also haven't benefited from the sale of your mums original home, agree with your sister. You seem to be the only resentful one.

Is there a particular reason that you didn't take on your mum? Maybe move in with her, or buy a place between you?

This ten times over

QuertyGirl · 02/02/2023 10:05

@Florencenightingalewasfab

Are you volunteering to care for her?

ChilliBandit · 02/02/2023 10:07

Gazelda · 02/02/2023 10:03

Maybe you offer to take a week AL and stay with DM while your sis and her DH have some respite from caring responsibilities.

This will give you chance to see what caring needs she has.

Agree with this 100%. I am currently watching my Mum having to look after her parent, not even full time and it is really tough. I help where I can but I have a job and a toddler and live 150 miles away. None of my mum’s siblings help, just treat my mum like an unpaid carer/personal assistant. That always seems to be the way, one or two siblings doing everything and the others just complaining.

DangerNoodles · 02/02/2023 10:09

Does your mum have form for being so stubborn? If so your sister has more than earned that extra bedroom by looking after your Mum for the best part of a decade.

No matter what their agreement was 7 years ago, your Mum needs to meet your sister half way and wear her alarm and nebuliser if she wants to stay at home. Your sister is only human and it is extremely difficult to help look after someone who won't do basic things to care for themselves.

Why do you think your siblings agree with your sister if they do not stand to gain financially? It's so easy for you to look at your sister and say she is money grabbing and that you would do things better. But you are not in the trenches, you are a long way away and don't have to care for your mother every day.

Starlitestarbright · 02/02/2023 10:10

Shes refusing to wear the alarm

Shes refusing breathing equipment

Shes refusing carers

What do you expect your sister to do? Give her job up to provide care?

The planning permission might not have been approved for 2 bedrooms.

Could you give up your time and home to care for her? You live far away its easy for you to have an opinion. The fact the rest of the siblings are in agreement says alot.

FeinCuroxiVooz · 02/02/2023 10:13

your mum is the victim of financial abuse, perpetrated by your sister. given that the rest of the siblings have done nothing you are all complicit but you can redeem yourself if you blow the whistle now.

find out who the safeguarding lead is at the hospital and give then all the details as above. financial abuse and exploitation of elderly people is a crime and your sister has fraudulently increased her own wealth while depriving your mum.of security and comfort in her final years. it's sickening.

MrsMikeDrop · 02/02/2023 10:17

afinishedkiss · 01/02/2023 23:14

Your sister is one sly dog.

This. Although it does sound like your sister has tried but your mum is making things difficult such as not wearing her necklace, and your sister is right regarding your mum falling. As PP said, get some legal advice, but it sounds like your mum should have really made the terms more clear before selling her house and handing over the money (and I'm assuming she was mentally fit when the extension was built?). Also maybe your sister only agreed while your mum required certain level of care (which is fair). It sounds like bad luck for your mum but not sure if there's much you can do.

Judgyjudgy · 02/02/2023 10:21

justasking111 · 01/02/2023 23:26

Your mother is refusing a nebuliser, an alarm, carers, I can see your families point of view.

You can't keep her safe 90 miles away, no-one can be there every minute. My friends siblings flew into the UK last month because of a similar issue. They've finally got mum to agree to go into a home and give up her flat.

It's a horrible time and you're not there every day to witness or experience it. You should go visit to get a more accurate impression.

This. It's much harder than you realise OP. Did you offer the same (for your mum to live with you)?

ChilliBandit · 02/02/2023 10:27

Perhaps if you added up 7 years of live in care costs you might feel better OP. It’s about £40k per year. Did your Mum “give” your sister £280,000.

AllOutofEverything · 02/02/2023 10:33

FeinCuroxiVooz · 02/02/2023 10:13

your mum is the victim of financial abuse, perpetrated by your sister. given that the rest of the siblings have done nothing you are all complicit but you can redeem yourself if you blow the whistle now.

find out who the safeguarding lead is at the hospital and give then all the details as above. financial abuse and exploitation of elderly people is a crime and your sister has fraudulently increased her own wealth while depriving your mum.of security and comfort in her final years. it's sickening.

I agree with this.
The issue is not refusing to give care. The issue is making the mum homeless.

DietCroak · 02/02/2023 10:37

AllOutofEverything · 02/02/2023 09:53

And the fact it is straight after seven years will make them more likely to see it in this way.

This makes no sense. 7 years is the cut off for an outright gift counting back from when the person has died. The mother here has not died. The fact it's 7 years is completely irrelevant to whether it's counted as a gift with a reservation of benefit.

saraclara · 02/02/2023 10:47

your sister has fraudulently increased her own wealth while depriving your mum.of security and comfort in her final years. it's sickening.

There might well have been fraud. But the sister has hardly deprived her mother of security and comfort. She's had the security of a brand new granny flat and her daughter's care for seven years.

Flumo · 02/02/2023 10:52

If she's deemed to have mental capacity then your siblings can't make her go in a home.

Cornelious2011 · 02/02/2023 10:53

Slightly similar but my parents built an annexe (one bed bungalow, separate entrance etc) for my grandparents. My grandparents sold their home (bought late in life so only about 30k in equity) and contributed about 50% to the build (it was 20 years ago). The plan was my grandparents would spend their old age there. Unfortunately my gran died suddenly after about 1 year and grandad lived there for another 2 years before wanting to move back into the city (near other family). When he got his own place my parents rented out the annexe and gave him the rent (minus about 10% to cover heating). This went on for 10 years until grandad died.

Did your mum spend all her life savings on the annexe?

AllOutofEverything · 02/02/2023 10:53

But the sister is threatening to make her mother homeless. Adults can decline care if they want. Many people do until they have no choice. If the mum was still living in her own home she could decline care and the sister could decline to provide care. As it is the only choice the mum has is to accept care or to go into a rented flat.

saraclara · 02/02/2023 10:58

But the sister is threatening to make her mother homeless

Is she @AllOutofEverything ? I need to go back and read OP's posts because I've not seen that threatened at all.

saraclara · 02/02/2023 10:59

Nope. I've re-read and there's no mention of making her homeless