Siblings want to put mum in a home

[Florencenightingalewasfab]

( I'll split this into two posts as it's quite long)Mum ( now in late 70's) sold her home and gave all the money to my sister for a 2 bed 'granny flat' ( to be built on the side of my sister's home. Sister took her money and built mum a ONE bedroom extension and also managed to gain a new bedroom into the bargain. So mum didn't get what she wanted and no one could come to stay in "her" flat, Sis used the 'extra' bedroom in her house - sorry - I digress. Mum dud this on the understanding that she wouldn't have to go into a ( old people's home ). Mum also gave full access to BIL and sis to her bank account

I think you need urgent legal advice. If your mums still in hospital she will get a full assessment to ensure she is 'safe' to come home. Safe means not at significant risk.
Unless you're paying privately it's not up to the individual, let alone the family to decide they want to go into a care home or get carers in. This is done on a needs assessment. If your mum has sufficient mental capacity she can decline all help.

The problem comes with not knowing financial arrangements your mum and sister have. Who legally owns the annex? Is it classes as a separate dwelling (2 separate council tax accounts?) How long ago did your mums money transfer? I believe if you become 'state dependent' before 7 years of giving away money you could be deemed as having done it deliberately for financial reasons. It might be worth talking alone with your mum about power of attorney. This needs to be set up whilst she has full mental capacity.
I would also say dont assume your sister hasn't got her best interest at heart. Having your mum almost living with her and her family for the last few years isn't something to be sniffed at.

As others have said sometimes even with the best will in the world older people are better off and safer in care than living with family. 24/7 care is unsustainable for a family member, especially if your mum is refusing assistance.

The only way to find out what is happening is to go down there yourself and talk to your mum. It might have reached the stage where what she wants just isn’t possible any more.

I’d let it go about the money. 7 years of caring is a long time. For reference my mum’s house sale will only yield enough to pay for 7 years in a care home.

@Florencenightingalewasfab Your sister, irrespective of the legalities of who owns what, sounds to have done vastly more than her fair share of the heavy lifting over the past seven years in regard to providing care for your mother.

If your sister says she's no longer able to provide appropriate care for your mother without support, after seven years, I think the least you can do is respect that and work towards a solution.

The financial issues, as many pp's have already said, are immaterial at the moment, really.

Agree with PP. your sis and other siblings aren’t forcing your mum into a home, your mum is refusing things such as a neck alarm which would enable her to continue as is for a while.

if this changes, your mum might be able to stay longer where she is, but you do get that sooner or later a care package and then a home are on the cards. That’s not your sister’s fault, it’s the aging process.

it is IHT that looks back 7 years, deprivation of assets has no time
limit. However, as the assets were used at least in part to house and feed your mum, this would be taken into account in any consideration. Your sister may be naive in thinking there is no claim though.

Even if you have power Of attorney, as long as your mum has mental capacity, she can decline the carers or refuse to let them in.

@Florencenightingalewasfab If there is no power of attorney in place, it might be worth finding out if there is a Deprivation of Liberty team who can talk to your mum. They will talk to her and the family to decide what safeguards need to be put in place. www.gov.uk/guidance/deprivation-of-liberty-orders

We had the DoLs team contact us for my mum, it caused ructions in the family because we put her in a home to keep her safe (dementia, wandering, confusion) and it was possible, on a good day for her to be plausible enough to try to leave. I was made her DoLs guardian.

also there are tax implications for your sister, so she could get a nasty bill at some point.

@Panjandrum123 I don’t think it will be a tax bill, if DM gifted the money 7 years ago, as that is outside the IHT timeframe. There may be a deprivation of assets claim, though (not a tax)

I think your muddling to different issues here:

• I can see that your sister has not behaved well
• but at the same time you seem to expect her to care for your mother on her own 24/7 while your mother is refusing help from carers or any device that would make it safer.

Your mother also needs to be reasonable. If she is not willing to go into a home she needs to accept carers and devices will need to be put in place.

The problem is also that this is your sister's home and your mother can't just insist that she wants to stay there.

So people who are saying ''she can't be forced into a home'' are forgetting that aspect of the problem. Your sister can very easily say to social services that she is no longer able to cope and that your mother needs to be placed in a home.

You need to stop looking at your sister as some sort of money grabbing cunt and focus on the fact your mother refuses to help herself SO she can stay at home. Your sister didn't hoof her out as soon as the house was finished and looking after an increasingly frail parent is bloody hard work. Do you all take a turn or do you just pour scorn on the lass?

What do you exactly want here? Your mother can't be left alone, what do you think should happen?

This.

“There's actually a term for this 'daughter from california syndrome' where a family member who hasn't been there day to day is surprised at the deterioration of their parent and challenges the care that has been given and may have unrealistic expectations of what is medically feasible. It feeds off guilt and denial and not necessarily what is right for the parent.”

yes, my American uncle was like this for my Nan, always making suggestions based on visiting once a year when obviously my Nan had rested up to have the most energy to see him etc (my Nan was a marvel, lived to over 100, but still needed help!)

Mixing up two things here. 7 years is the limit for IHT (that's irrelevant here as you measure from time of death and the mother has not died). There is no limit for deprivation of assets cases re care home fees. However, deprivation of assets is only a problem where assets have been spent or given away with a view to avoiding fees- that's not what has happened here. I feel terribly sorry for the sister, who has cared for her mother for 7 years and is now having poorly-informed strangers making all sorts of unfounded claims against her.

OP, I'd suggest you try to separate your feelings about the money from your thoughts about your mother's ongoing needs. She has been told by the doctor that she needs to wear an alarm, she also needs carers, and she is refusing both. Clearly your sister cannot become a full time carer so something is going to have to change. The fact that the intention was that having the annex would avoid a home is neither here nor there- nobody knows what someone's care needs are going to be in future.

I'd really recommend that you try to emphasise with your sister's position a little more and try to work out together how your mother's needs can be met. That may be that she has to agree to the alarm and carers, it may be more than that. You're massively underestimating what your sister has taken on in having your mother live with her. If I were in your sister's shoes and a relative- who has done nothing towards care- turned up demanding impossible things and grumbling about her inheritance, I'd hit the fucking roof.

I think it's interesting that your other siblings - who (unlike your sister) - don't stand to gain - agree that your mother would be better in a care home. You portray them all as money-grabbing but, if your mother still has any assets, these will have to be spent on care home fees. So what do you think their motive is?

So was your Mum in her early 70's when she gave your Sister and BIL full access to her bank account ? Did she ever say why she did that ? or did they get POA and thought it would be sensible to be able to have access if they needed it in the future ?

Depending on if your Mum has any savings at all or pensions, she may still have to pay towards any care package. If she is refusing to have carers/a lifeline pendant/use a home nebuliser, I can understand why your Sister is suggesting residential care at this point.

It would be good for your sister to provide basic care, but this situation sounds like she needs a professional carer

I do feel unless you help her yourself then I would think it is a little unfair you commenting though

I and my brother also have full access to our mum's bank account. We only use it on her behalf, in her interests, or at her request (if she wants to send a gift to someone, say).
Our use of it is entirely transparent. We each ask the other to glance at it regularly to ensure that we are each comfortable with the transactions that have been made by the other.

How long has your mum been unwell?

7 years is the cut off usually. What was the plan anyway as soon as your mum gave your sister the money there was no inheritance. So it seems you are happy to have no inheritance aslong as your sister does l caring needs and finds her poor mother dead one day otherwise if she has to go in a home which is what is best for your mother possibly you think that's unfair on you

Your sister has the brunt of the care and if it's been years then surely she has 'earned' that 'money' . Speaking from my own personal experience it is hell

Insane idea ask your sister to swop houses and you become the carer

I really feel for you. My sister and BIL fleeced my mother for years. She's passed away now and of course all her assets/money have mysteriously disappeared. Will was changed and they had full control without any of the siblings being told. Sister and BIL put up a brick wall and refused to discuss with anyone. Some people have no shame.

Well if your mum is refusing reasonable medical advice, your sister is quite right in saying she needs to go into a home. Her safety should be everyone's priority. Your mum can't have it both ways. Maybe spend time with her, explaining that if she doesn't want to go into a home she really needs to accept the safety interventions. It's an utterly reasonable compromise. My partner has his mum living with him. Even then she wears an alarm round her neck in case she falls. And thank goodness she does because she fell a few weeks ago when he was in a different part of the house. He wouldn't have known for hours otherwise. Your mother needs to start being reasonable.

Sorry if I’ve missed it but how long has your Mum lived with your sister? Your Mum refusing to wear an alarm (not onerous) sounds like she might not be the easiest to care for.

I have had a similar situation in my family. My aunt moved her and her young family in to my grandmas house and bought it off her for a reduced price to care for her. She cared for her for years and she was not an easy woman to deal with. In the end she really needed specialist care and had to go into a home. My aunt of course kept the house, she had cared for her tirelessly for years with little help from her siblings. The only person who begrudged her it was the sibling that lived hundreds of miles away and had no idea how difficult it was caring for my grandma by then.

I think your sister was sly with the extension (unless it was a planning issue) but I think you are vastly underestimating how difficult it is to care for an elderly person as they decline. Even more so if they are very stubborn, show signs of dementia.

And I do think it sounds like you are more bitter about your sister having a big house than your mum.

The other two siblings, who also haven't benefited from the sale of your mums original home, agree with your sister. You seem to be the only resentful one.

Is there a particular reason that you didn't take on your mum? Maybe move in with her, or buy a place between you?

A care home could be that amount per week. But most aren’t. Similarly googling suppliers of live in care suggests live in care is typically between £1000 and £2000 a week.

You’re right that few people can afford this without cashing in the home they’re living in. And Councils are unlikely to pay since they pay well under £1000 per week for a care home place.

It sounds like your mum was very unwise. However, if it is true that she is refusing help offered and in an unsafe condition, maybe a nursing home is the right thing?
My own dmum is 83. Whilst she has capacity we have done a poa but more importantly have agreed the circumstances in which she will go into a home. It's where she has accepted maximum in home paid for care (with me doing shopping and social visits) and is not coping or is unsafe (eg dementia causes her to go wandering). I have agreed this because we both know thar she might feel differently at the time but this is what her rational self knows.

It might come under Gift with Reservation of Benefit, since DM has continued to live in the extension. In which case it would still be regarded as part of DM’s estate for IHT purposes. This is a closing of the loophole whereby people would sign over their house to their children while continuing to live in it.

Re deprivation of assets: a zealous LA would be interested in where the money came from to pay for the extension, and where the money from the sale of DM’s house had gone to

The health if a friend’s father, carer for his wife, began to deteriorate badly after the age of 100. His children wanted both to go into a care home, but he steadfastly refused and also the help of carers. The GP referred the case to the Community Matron who assessed the parents needs and patiently explained to both parents what care they needed.

My friend is full of praise for the Matron’s handling of the situation and the father was admitted to a care home shortly after while the mother accepted the help of carers at home. The Community Matron seems to be a little known role - perhaps she could be involved with your case?